People say anything good about the game?

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I have plenty of positive things to say about Madden 11, but I also have plenty of negative to say about it. I feel the game suffers from lack of a grounding philosophy. It tries to please everyone and ends up pleasing no one. It wants to be everything to every gamer... so something that could be an incredibly deep and sim-oriented addition is made as simple and "intuitive" as possible so as not to overwhelm the casuals. Often, this leaves the addition half done or useless. Madden 10 is a microcosm of this mentality. There probably was not an area of the game that wasn't touched. They went into everything... complete overhaul. I would say a good 90% of this community approved of everything they were attempting to do, but much of it fell short of what we were hoping for. Too many things done at once. In Madden 11, there was a bit more focus; in game play, locomotion and run blocking were singled out and they turned out pretty solid. Then you have game planning... which could have been an amazing feature for sim guys, but (on defense especially) the attempt to keep it simple left it feeling empty, and ultimately made it inferior to the old way. I think the community is at fault as well. We compare the game to NBA 2k11, FIFA 11, NHL 11... and football is so much more complicated than those sports. Compared to those three games, even NFL 2k5, APF 2k8, and the FPS/Sierra Sports Football Pro games were very poor recreations of NFL football. This isn't because they were bad, but because football itself is orders of magnitude more complex tactically than those sports. Consider that, in the NFL, often enough, even the safeties don't know precisely what the coverage is until the ball is snapped and they react to the movement of the receivers. Sky vs. Cloud coverage is often determined by whether a slot receiver takes an outside or inside release, for example, and that's a common, simple example. There really is no such thing as a defensive formation. Rather, there are personnel packages who's fronts and shells are dictated by the offensive formations, often on a player-by-player basis. An outside linebacker in a 4-3 under may play 3 yards off the outside shoulder of the TE, unless there is a lot to his side, in which case he'll play the apex... unless there's an offset-fullback, in which case he may play on the line of scrimmage and the left end will shade the inside of the TE as well, where as that end would otherwise be shade the outside of the tackle. And yet, no football game - none - has even had receivers read seams in the zone and throttle down in them... and that's common football knowledge even to fans. There are so many very basic things that football games haven't even tried. This isn't limited to Madden or NCAA, but all football games. 2k8 had coverage shells, but they weren't implemented correctly. It also had tiered play calling... also not implemented properly. Better, yes, but not correct by any means. The point is that we want a football game on par with NBA 2k11, but most of us don't have the faintest idea what that would really entail. How lost we would really be. There are people on this site that would be right at home with that game, but it's certainly not the majority of us... and we're the most football savvy sect of the online Madden community. How do you think that level of realism would effect the casual or freestyle user? Basketball, Hockey, Soccer are all sports that, even at their highest level, are decided by the athleticism of their participants. At the NFL level, tactics play just as significant a role as athleticism. The most physically talented teams lose to the teams that are better prepared and have a superior game plan. In every other sport, the most athletically talented teams win their championships the majority of the time. I don't think that's true in the NFL. Maybe half the time... maybe... the most talented wins the title. The rest of the time, it's the team with the best combination of coaching and talent. In a truly realistic football game, a deep understanding of football would be as much an advantage... if not significantly more so... than superior stick skills. This could never be the case with FIFA, NBA, or NHL.

I wasn't going to comment on this thread, because even though there are definitely good things to be said about the game, I don't feel that the title as a whole deserves my praise. I also don't feel the need to go into a thread whose purpose is to hear good things about the game, and go in there and post how I disagree with everything that is said in, like people with a favorable opinion of the game do, when ever there is a thread that is focused on a discussion of a criticism.

I feel the need to respond to this one though, because #1, it is a very thoughtful post and I agree with a lot of it, and #2 just to offer another perspective, since a large part of the post deals with the gamers being partially to blame, for their unrealistic expectations.

I agree that Football is a more complex sport than most to program. I say most and not all, because I would just be taking an educated guess that it is, but don't know that for certain. In any event, I will concede that it is an extremely difficult sport to program. I'm experimenting with it myself.

You went into detailed analysis of how many keys have to be made on a given play, and you did a great job at illustrating how complex the decision making is in Football. If gamers were demanding that that level of complexity be perfectly translated to the game, then I would see where you were coming from with putting a modicum of blame on gamer's expectations or demands. But I don't think that is the case at all, for the most part. There are things that Tiburon could do to greatly improve the game from a realism perspective that wouldn't require a ton more effort or know how than they would need to program any other sports game.

Basic stuff is what most people chide Madden for not having. Things like better player interactions, particularly in the tackling department, are not overly challenging problems. Yes there are more interactions in Football playing out at a given time than other sports games, but so what? The consoles are perfectly capable of keeping track of those types of permutations, as there are games in other genres have many more characters on screen at one time than a football game, interacting and somehow they have managed to figure it out. NFL 2K5/ APF 2K8 are not perfect games by any stretch, but they seemed to fair much better in that department, and I'm sure that many would be happy, at least for a time, if Madden could even achieve that level of player interaction, so again, I don't think that people are being unrealistic.

On the subject of the 2K Football games, you also mentioned that they were poor creations of the sport. I think you worded it much more strongly than I would, but I know where you are coming from and I definitely agree to an extent. I would ask that you bear this in mind though. I don't have 2K11 yet, but will soon, and from what I have heard, from reviews, and forums, is that the gameplay is really something. Now you have said that it is easier to make a solid representation of the sport of Basketball than Football, and again, common sense would tell me to agree with this statement, but it took time for NBA 2k to get to this level. NBA 2K has been around for a decade and has seen its fair share of issues over the years before becoming what some say is the best sports game ever. While it may be true that NFL 2K is a "poor" representation of Football, that title was only around for 5yrs and in those 5yrs, the game progressed very well from 2K to 2K5. If they had made it every year over the past decade like the NBA 2K series, who is to say that it wouldn't be a good representation of Football by now, if not the best sports game ever?

I'm not stating this as fact, I'm just giving food for thought. Nothing more. Again, your point was well taken, and it was a great post. I just don't think the issue of whether gamers ask too much or whether a Football videogame is a nightmare to make, is as cut and dry as it is sometimes made out to be. Who knows though.

Carry on with good points of Madden.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

How is the community at fault ? I realize that football is more complicated, but that doesn't excuse the fact that Madden 11 hasn't improved much, and in some aspect regressed, since EA obtained the exclusive license. Here's the problem with Madden 11: it's the fact that you even brought up games that were made up to six years ago. Is anyone comparing NBA 2k11 to games made over a half a decade ago on inferior hardware? No, they're not, and in a nut shell, that's the problem with Madden. Fundamentally, it hasn't progressed in this generation of consoles.

That's just one example, though.

I still think HH Baseball plays a better game than 2k baseball, strategy wise. There were no errors in 2k baseball this year. That has the potential in real life to happen once per game. HH Baseball had errors, passed balls, wild pitches and nailed baseball strategy to a T. but people played Triple Play more than HH baseball. ie Triple Play was arcade until they developed MVP Baseball.

Heck, I spent many more hours playing Techmo Bowl and NBA Jam than I have playing Madden and 2k. Why? Because they were fun and drew you in.

It's not just Madden.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Honestly if this game just had better coverage A.I I would be just fine. Im cool with everything else.

I love running the ball

[merv-illest]

Quote: Originally Posted by Armor & Sword

I am so far from a casual sports gamer (I would not be here posting) it's not funny. But I have always played and enjoyed Madden. They stopped growing the game as far franchsie mode (the most important mode for me and many Madden vets) in this new Generation of consoles. Game play has improved from the previous consoles. I don't understand how anyone can think it has not. The game plays better now than it ever has. Are some of the defensive adjustments dumbed down from the last great Madden 2005....yes and that is a minor gripe. So tell me have you ever liked Madden football? Yeah I have NFL2K5 on XBOX and the game is awesome. But it's 6 years old and it is a title I go to for maybe 2-3 months out of the year to replay a classic season thanks to a great roster community. But I love playing current gen games as they are for the most part awesome. I have been playing video games for over 32 years now. So I ask was Madden ever a very good game for you? This is a thread for diehard Madden fans...not fanbois but fans of the series. The game will never be perfect. The game is not a true sim and it never has been or has attempted to be IMO. It is a very good combination of sim and arcade style elements. Where the sim elements come in are in the Owner/franchise mode which we all know needs an overhaul to get at least this Madden players future dollars. Also the playbooks are very good IMO, I get a great variety of plays to call...more than enough to be honest. Gameplanning, a great running game control scheme feels sim to me as well. The most important thing about a sports game for me is fun....it needs to be fun and Madden 2011 is a ton of fun. Not out of the box...no sir, but with the community effort here I have been able to get great sliders, gameplan idea's and also franchise idea's (EG controlling all 32 teams, house rules) yeah it is not great that we have to do all this work around to get the game we ultimately want, but i am one that looks at the glass half full not half empty. I make things work for my enjoyment instead of giving in to the suck and going back to the store with my tail between my legs and trading in the game for 60% plus less than what I paid for it, that is defeat, and no way a video game will give me a defeatest attitidue. I knew the shortcomings of the game when I bought it, I knew the franchise mode was not touched, but the gameplay improved drastically from 2010. Not even close IMO. That alone made me want to buy the game because I wanted to play NFL football, and I knew I could make this game work in franchise mode with a little effort on my part. Plus the gameplanning feature kicks big time ***. I agree it should not be this way.....but it is the reality of the state of NFL video gaming. It's really simple for me. If I see no major franchise improvements next year that would immerse me, and make it less work for me (not having to control every team because of shoddy GM AI), if they don't build upon gameplanning (a great feature to make the AI play a much better game than ever before) and in fact remove it (something they are famous for doing with new features) they will not get money again for Madden until it's done. I think I speak for most of the offline franchsie guys who actually really enjoy playing Madden and think it is a damm good game. There is a reason it sells well year after year after year. The game is a lot of fun and yes it appeals to the mainstream and casual crowd big time. But they have a hardcore following (us around here) that they are losing no quesion. Sounds like you better wait for 2K to maybe make another football title because correct me if I am wrong Madden is certainly not your cup of tea. If you did not like Madden back in 1999 or 2005 you will never like Madden.

Ok I will try to keep this short and simple. Madden was a very good game for me when it first came out on the Genesis, I played the crap out of it and loved it. Now when NFL Gameday came out during the PS1 years I was intrigued and tried it. Guess what it had more to offer than Madden did at the time. Players were able shake off would be tacklers, I was so tired of getting touched in Madden, while it looked like my player still had their footing they would end up falling down out of no where (my friends and I would call it the heart attack animation). Gameday also brought laterals, stiff arms, juke moves, forearm shivers, fumble hits, and swim moves that actually worked. These little things are fundamentals of football were not found in Madden. I still bought Madden every year but it wasn't as good as what others were bringing to the table at the time.

Madden 64 was probably the best one ever made, because of the ability to play 2 vs 2 and guess what they didn't even have the NFL license that year. The gameplay was very good and I don't remember too many issues with it. It also had a helmet cam.

Now on to the PS2 and Dreamcast days. Madden was delayed that year due to the PS2 not coming out til the holidays and the Dreamcast already had their NFL 2k game out. I needed my NFL fix and since I thought NBA 2k was awesome, I might as well try their football game. The players looked like shiz but the gameplay was similar to Madden 64 with just a little more added to it. That being said and the way I felt about Madden 64 I was instantly hooked. I hoped that Madden would come out on the Dreamcast but that was never going to happen. Not only that but I couldn't play Madden online on the PS2 and due to my age it was tough to get together with friends to play. The only way I could play other people was with a Dreamcast and NFL 2k online! This is where I wanted to be and I found myself getting comfortable with the 2k brand of football. In short Madden was too late and I already found my fix.

So if you want to talk about fanbois, I was a die hard Madden one for quite a while. Now I'm just a fan of good gameplay no matter the genre of game.

[Armor and Sword]

I agree about NFL Gameday that game was fantastic and I played the hell out of it. It was not till Madden 99 that I jumped back to Madden as my exclusive football title. NFL 2K5 was and still is a hell of a game. Was nice back then having so many choices.

[DJ]

I enjoy Madden 11. I'd enjoy it more if I could get some good defensive battles (slider suggestios, anyone?) but on the whole, the game isn't a disaster as some people will have you believe.

Gameplan and Gameflow are cool features and have potential to be really good in the future. I like the removal of the sprint button. I like the graphics and the stadium-specific chants and songs. I like the run blocking and running game.

I think if the Madden crew can tighten up the defensive AI, improve Locomotion so DB's don't get 15-20 yards out of position b/c they can't stop on a dime and change direction and really tone down CPU QBs throwing balls away when they are about to be sacked, then we'll have a really, really good game.

Part of the problem with Madden is that it has been around for so long that people just expect perfection and are ultimately let down. I don't set my hopes that high; I just hope the game is fun. Is Madden 11 fun? At times, yes. There's room for improvement, i.e. offline franchise needs more depth, but I can still play Madden and not feel like I'm forced to play the game.

[adembroski]

I don't think I was clear when I gave some fault to the community.

What I am saying is that we cannot expect a game that is as good a representation of football as NBA 2k11 is of basketball, and when we make that comparison, we set an unrealistic standard. This, I believe, contributes to the marginalization of our own wishes.

It's not so much that they don't give a damn, it's a justifiable belief that we simply cannot realistically be satisfied. What's the sense in paying attention to this communities wishes when this communities wishes are unattainable?

I see it a lot. Nobody has a complaint about a given aspect of the game until someone who knows it better than most makes a post detailing the issue in football terms. The moment that thread gets seen, it becomes the cause de celebre of the entire community. Before the thread, nobody knew better... after the thread, people are up in arms like they've been begging for this since the dawn of time and now it's absolutely ruining their gameplay experience.

We can expect a game that is as good as NBA 2k11, but that game wont be as close to NFL Football as NBA 2k11 is to NBA Basketball.

[guaps]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I don't think I was clear when I gave some fault to the community. What I am saying is that we cannot expect a game that is as good a representation of football as NBA 2k11 is of basketball, and when we make that comparison, we set an unrealistic standard. This, I believe, contributes to the marginalization of our own wishes. It's not so much that they don't give a damn, it's a justifiable belief that we simply cannot realistically be satisfied. What's the sense in paying attention to this communities wishes when this communities wishes are unattainable? I see it a lot. Nobody has a complaint about a given aspect of the game until someone who knows it better than most makes a post detailing the issue in football terms. The moment that thread gets seen, it becomes the cause de celebre of the entire community. Before the thread, nobody knew better... after the thread, people are up in arms like they've been begging for this since the dawn of time and now it's absolutely ruining their gameplay experience. We can expect a game that is as good as NBA 2k11, but that game wont be as close to NFL Football as NBA 2k11 is to NBA Basketball.

While I agree with your post, I have to state that basically all my suggestions for improvements stems from other EA Sports games using almost the same technology. Therefore I know it is possible to implement a similar feature in Madden, but that not saying that it would be easy to do so. Other EA franchises implemented things in their games that affect gameplay, even though they are not perfect.

Take FIFA's collision system (which uses speed, weight and power to calculate the collision) that have been in the game for several years now and are continually improved upon. Initially, gamers were lucky if the system got 4 out of 5 collisions right, but after a couple years of tweaking, the system manages to get almost every collision right - the ones that don't, however, stand out ever more causing some reactions from the community.

Or take NHL 11's new physics engine. Never have I had so much fun playing a hockey game as I do now. Even people, who don't care about hockey, ask me when we can play another game of NHL, because it was so fun. A friend of mine didn't score a single goal in his first five games of NHL 11, but he still have a blast playing it. Show me a gamer new to Madden, who still enjoys the game after five shutouts.

Also the unpredictable nature of the aforementioned games makes them extremely playable. Every single game of NHL 11 and FIFA 11 I've played have had something unique happen (a hit, shot attempt, goal or even a celebration), that has either awed me or made me laugh out loud. Madden hasn't done that in years.