Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

[steelcurtain311]

Quote: Originally Posted by CreatineKasey

Even the collision detection could be worked on. Pro-Tak should be continually updated to be more and more sensitive to contact. That's something I've always respected from 2k football games. They really recognize and detect contact around the player without stringing out animations too much. Every animation seemed to have a point where another defender or two could come in and finish the play. Madden would benefit from that aesthetically so much. I still feel like this game is kind of messy inside when broken tackle animations happen and the swarm of angry bees (or defenders) buzz around the player but can't bring him down due to the long animation.

We've all been begging for improvement in this area for years. The 2K games (even the NBA ones) all implement a pretty solid collision detection animation system. I think Madden's outdated engine prevents it from doing anything better with the contact, although I may be wrong on that.

Even if they improved the front seven play from the defensive perspective, it's still not going to help all of the problems in the secondary. New engine, new game, otherwise they won't see a dime from me.

[Sven Draconian]

Assignment Part 2- What's the deal with 4 verts anyway?

Maybe more than anything else, the "4 verts" concept has made the single-player version of this game...well....easy. You can literally get into a trips formation and run 4 verts every snap and possibly score every possession. It's a monster, and it must be stopped.

While it's easy enough to just say "Well, don't call it"..... but the real issue is EVERY passing play that has a receiver attacking the seam. Or a post. Or a deep drag. That doesn't leave a whole lot of plays left.

The first thing to do here is define the "Seam". For my purpose (and it's my post, so really....that's what really matters here ) it's the 10 yard box between the hashmarks and the midpoint between the hashmarks and numbers. Or, roughly, the area about where the slot receiver aligns himself.

Or, in Madden terms, the "No Cover Zone." Any receiver in the "seam" and about 12 yards deep won't be covered. Even beyond the constant blitzing from the CPU that leaves the entire middle of the field open, this little seam spot is always open.

It's too deep for the Hook zones to cover (the little yellow circles). It's inside of the Hook/Curl zone (the purple ones) and the deep coverage guys are too deep to be in the play. It's like the Birmuda triangle. There are a few steps to fixing this...including a new coverage zone or 2.

SCF

One of the biggest issues here is that the purple zone (Curl/Flat) should not be in cover 3. That's the proper zone for Cover 2, but cover 3 needs a player to play the Seam, Curl, Flat zone.


C.........................F....................... ..C
...............D..........L...L........D
......................E..n..t...E
WR........WR......T.G.C.G.T.....Wr...........WR
.............................Q
.............................H

The "Dogs" (or Spurs/Bandits/Safeties...whatever you like to call them. Their DBs), indicated with a "D" play the Seam, Curl, Flat (SCF). NOT the flat, as they do now. NOT the Curl/Flat as they sometimes do.

They align INSIDE of the slot receivers. On a passing play, their job is to control the seam. How? They stand in it, and force the slot receiver to run wider than the seam. This probably involves re-routing them at about 5 yards. Then they will deepen with the route for, say, 12 yards (no hard and fast rule, but we'll go with 12). and keeping that receiver wide.

By making the receiver go wide, they allow the corner to play the deep pass.

If the receiver doesn't run vertical, he goes and plays the curl/flat zone like normal. Obviously, he would cover a curl by the slot receiver.

The Corner then has to play any quick throws (such as a hitch) to the outside receiver. So he can't stand 10 yards deep like he does now. Or he can, but then you look like Michigan's defense.

A safety that rolls from a high position into Cover 3 should play SCF as well. Currently, that player is given a hook zone.

Walling Off

If a Cover 3 player is assigned the SCF, a cover 2 linebacker should have a similar technique. He's still playing the "hook" zone, but it might be easier to think of it as a "Seam, Hook" zone. I just made that up, I've never heard anyone else use it, but I think you'll understand the technique.

............$...........................$
...................L.........L.........L.......... ....
C.....................E..n..t...E................. ..C
WR........WR......T.G.C.G.T.....WR...........WR
.............................Q
.............................H

The linebackers widen their alignment just a tick (back to the Alignment post). They play inside leverage.Their job is to keep the Slot WR from running to their inside.

If he tries to run a slant/drag this is pretty intuitive. Just run into him and reroute him. It's legal within 5 yards (and, anywhere in the NCAA).

If he runs deep, it's a bit tougher. The backer needs to expand with him, keeping inside leverage. There's a big hole between the safeties, and he can't let the WR into it. He wants to keep that receiver as wide as he can. He opens up his hips TO the receiver, and runs with him. Again, 12 yards or so he lets him go.

Quarters Coverage/Cover 2 Read

The other issue, is that the game doesn't have a very common coverage in the game. While there is some minutiae that makes these 2 seperate coverages in real football. For the purpose of the Madden gamer, we can just combine them.

..C.................(LS).............(RS)......... ...C

WR...............WR..................WR........... .WR
(1)................(2)..................(3)....... .....(4)


Here we have 4 receivers vs 4 DBs (2 corners, 2 safeties, designated as Left Safety/Right Safety). The DB's align about 7 yards deep with inside leverage.

On a pass play, everbody reads the slot receiver to their side (C/LS read 2, C/RS read 3).

If the slot receiver runs a vertical pattern, it turns into man coverage.

If the slot receiver runs an out-breaking pattern, the corner jumps that pattern and the safety covers the wider man.

If the slot receiver runs an in-breaking pattern, it turns into double coverage on the wider receiver.

(For those interested, "true" quarters has the safety jumping an out-pattern by the slot...)

The safety is also the "force" player on a run to his side.

For a lot of teams that use the 4-3 as their base defense, this is the #1 coverage (or it's close cousin, Quarter/Quarter, Half, which is quarters to the wide side of the field and true cover 2 to the short side). Including Indianapolis and Chicago in the NFL and...well...a long list of colleges (Boise, Ohio State, Iowa, Florida, Eastern Mich, West Mich, Temple, Bowling Green) and almost every team uses it to some extent.

[BezO]

Good stuff Sven! I admire you and LB for taking the time to provide detail & get technical. I can never bring myself to do so.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Make no mistake, the playbooks you see in Madden and NCAA are VERY good. If you think they're limited, well, you don't know what your doing. Sorry, no politically correct way to say that.

Unfortunately, I must not know what I'm doing.

Offensive playbooks need duplication of plays from formation to formation. And it needs to be retiered, starting with personnel, then all available formations with the selected personnel. The QB drop needs to be put into the play name. And the drops & primary routes need to be synchronized.

Defensive playbooks won't be right until they're tiered. There are not enough pre-packaged schemes and my understanding is that there's a space issue. As it stands, there are too many basic shcemes missing. Every play, I have to decide if I'm selecting based on coverage and accepting the included blitzes/stunts or selecting based on blitzes/stunts and accepting the coverage. Even with the available schemes, they're not duplicated in related fronts.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

There is not nearly enough lateral movement occuring, especially after contact.

Yeah, I've been calling this engaged player mobility. The lack of it kills the timing & spacing. Outside runs & cutbacks look nothing like they should. It hurts pass rushing animations & the pocket as well.

[shttymcgee]

Sven,

I've agreed (at least mostly) with almost everything you've said up until some things in your last post. Maybe this is more coach-speak than madden-speak, so it might not apply to the video game. I will say that I definitely agree that there is a major exploit in the seam area, but my ideas about how it should be covered are certainly different than yours.

In your first post of the thread, you talked about how alignment is closely tied to assignment, but I think there are some contradictions in how you are aligning to and how you taking care of 4 verticals in your middle field safety defense. Who has force? The flat players. How can you expect a player to have force if he is aligned inside his nearest receiver? How do you defend against the bubble screen (# 1 stalk, #2 swing) if the scif player is aligned inside the slot? (scif to me is more a technique used in 3 under-3 deep fire zones, but regardless). How do you cover the drop out/sail combination from inside alignment (#1 vertical, #2 deep and out) for that matter? Why not funnel the inside receivers to the FS? What about smash (#1 short, #2 to the flag), doesn't the inside alignment of the scif player effectively wall him off and if you have the corner jumping the hitch, then the scif is in no position to play the flag?

To me, if you want the safeties playing force, they should align outside shoulder, or at least head up and then playing outside technique post-snap (of course, this could change based on divider rules, which are a more complex method of breaking down field areas in accordance with receiver splits). This outside alignment takes away outside breaking routes from the inside receiver, which is what you want to do in cover 3 anyway and maintains the force position from outside-in. I certainly agree with you that you have to have a way of taking care of 4 verts, and in 4 down defenses, we would run with the #2 receiver in a position to be able to see #1 also, so we could get under the hitch. Most would try to redirect the seam runner to the inside, toward the MOF safety. I've never even heard of walling with the flat player unless you're in a zone blitz.

[shttymcgee]

Trying to break my thoughts up into separate posts.

While it is popular to have the flat player run with seams in 3 deep coverage, I feel that when in a 3 down defense (5 under 3 deep) that the hook player can expand and get under the seam route, thus letting you buzz the safety to the flat, of course you're losing a rusher.

This thought brings me to my next question. In your example, you used a 3x1 formation, but didn't explain how to take care of the #3 receiver running the post. Wouldn't you want the backside hook player to take care of that vertical route, letting the flat player cut any crosser or to take the back to the flat?

Even though some teams may let the safety try to get to the flats in Quarters vs. the drop out combination you used, I think most teams would expect the backer to get under it, leaving the safety to rob the inside breaking route by #1 if it happens.

What about Tampa 2? Those outside backers will not run with the seam routes, won't they just redirect and play the hook zone, with the MLB running deep? (even though most have an adjustment so they can run with #2 to one side and let the Mike focus on #2 to the other side vs. spread-type formations)

I hope I have not seemed critical, I'm just trying to pick your brain a little. I always respect your thoughts and am awaiting your reply.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Good stuff Sven! I admire you and LB for taking the time to provide detail & get technical. I can never bring myself to do so. Unfortunately, I must not know what I'm doing. Offensive playbooks need duplication of plays from formation to formation. And it needs to be retiered, starting with personnel, then all available formations with the selected personnel. The QB drop needs to be put into the play name. And the drops & primary routes need to be synchronized. Defensive playbooks won't be right until they're tiered. There are not enough pre-packaged schemes and my understanding is that there's a space issue. As it stands, there are too many basic shcemes missing. Every play, I have to decide if I'm selecting based on coverage and accepting the included blitzes/stunts or selecting based on blitzes/stunts and accepting the coverage. Even with the available schemes, they're not duplicated in related fronts. Yeah, I've been calling this engaged player mobility. The lack of it kills the timing & spacing. Outside runs & cutbacks look nothing like they should. It hurts pass rushing animations & the pocket as well.

As long as the user calls the defense starting with the coverage (after personnel) and works down to front. Remember, coverage responsibilities (flat and deep zones especially) dictate run fits. You wouldn't want to end up with a flat player lined up over the center, at least not in normal downs and distances.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

To Sven and Shttymcgee, what are your thoughts on how the game handles twin formations with man coverage? I feel like the AI uses the CB as the force player all the time and when there is no CB on that side, the AI rarely adjusts. I wrote about this in this thread: http://www.operationsports.com/forums/madden-nfl-football/455829-madden-motion-sim.html About the I Form Normal formation: "A common Madden strategy over the past 10 years or so is to motion the WR from the right to the left to help determine if the defense is in man or zone, and if the defense is in man, the CB on that side will obviously follow. This is important in Madden because not having a CB to the play side kind of “breaks” the run defense. The OLB or SS rarely makes the adjustment to have contain on that side, and it’s often an opening for a big run. This is not an uncommon strategy in the real NFL, but in video game life, the CPU (or human for that matter) is rarely able to make the proper adjustments. If the defense is in zone, another common move would be to audible back to the original play and keep the WR on his original side. It’s bad Madden strategy to motion the WR opposite playside unless he’s taking the CB with him. Here’s why it’s not really sim: the motion that occurs on an NFL play is pre-determined, not a last minute adjustment at the line. Every now and then the QB will have a bad play call and maybe motion a TE to the backfield to help with blitz pick up, but for the most part, the motion is called in the huddle."

Yeah, I think you're right. Even though I do think this year's game does a better job if the OLB to the nub side is a 9 technique.

[Sven Draconian]

I'll start this with how I teach our guys to play SCF, then answer individually.

Align inside #2, tight to the line, your outside shoulder on his inside shoulder. Turn about 45 degrees (present back to defender). (except for a tight bunch, than we play the point man tough). There should be about 2-3 yards vertical seperation between the slot and DB (if #2 is on the line, back off).

We really use a divider rule, but I just gameplan it week by week instead of teaching them the rule. If we get a wing/slit, we align 1x1 off his outside shoulder.

Read EMOL for high hat-low hat. Low-hat, cross line (beat a scoop byt he slot), get flat, force.

High hat-flip hips, look to collision and ride #2 (inside trail position). Listen for SMASH to rally to the flats.

if I was coaching D1 kids, I'd back them off the line a little bit (Something to the tune of 5x1, inside).

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

In your first post of the thread, you talked about how alignment is closely tied to assignment, but I think there are some contradictions in how you are aligning to and how you taking care of 4 verticals in your middle field safety defense. Who has force? The flat players. How can you expect a player to have force if he is aligned inside his nearest receiver?

I think most schools use the divider concept. APEX #1 and EMOL, that determines your leverage. If #2 is that tight so that you are outside of him, no biggie, becaue he can't get to the seam. If #2 is wide enough so you are outside of him, he can't block you as a force (just turn your back to him).

Quote:

How do you defend against the bubble screen (# 1 stalk, #2 swing) if the scif player is aligned inside the slot? (scif to me is more a technique used in 3 under-3 deep fire zones, but regardless). How do you cover the drop out/sail combination from inside alignment (#1 vertical, #2 deep and out) for that matter?

On a bubble, the corner has to make that play. He's reading the QB's drop (IRL, in a video game...well...he already knows the play). If he sets at 3 steps, he drives forward.

It's pretty tough to cover Y-Sail from that look. You are hoping your SCF can run with the slot. It's also a hard throw. That's why that million dollar arm is so valuable.

Quote:

Why not funnel the inside receivers to the FS? What about smash (#1 short, #2 to the flag), doesn't the inside alignment of the scif player effectively wall him off and if you have the corner jumping the hitch, then the scif is in no position to play the flag?

It's tough to funnel to the FS because it makes it an easier throw. Instead of forcing a longer throw that has to go over the defenders head (thus, has some air), he can just read the FS (or, just look him off) and fire an arrow right in the hole. Which is, more or less, what you can do now on any snap.

On Smash, the CB has to read the QB's drop. 3-step, drive forward. 5 Step, sink with the corner and let the SCF rally to the hitch. It's a tough coverage unless you have a really good SCF. But, then, Smash is a big concept against Cov 3. for tha reason.

Quote:

To me, if you want the safeties playing force, they should align outside shoulder, or at least head up and then playing outside technique post-snap (of course, this could change based on divider rules, which are a more complex method of breaking down field areas in accordance with receiver splits). This outside alignment takes away outside breaking routes from the inside receiver, which is what you want to do in cover 3 anyway and maintains the force position from outside-in.

If you play him outside, he can easily be expanded out of a force position. It's the same issue with Cover 2 corners, they can be put wide enough that they are irrelevant. Besides that point, they can easily be turned out.

And I'd rather have them taking away the quick throws (Slant, quick seam, hitch) and force the 8 yard out over my head. That's just a personal preference. Basically, I see that player as 4-4 OLB/3-4 DE in terms of style. You're looking at him as more of a true DB.

Just two different schools of thought.

Quote:

I certainly agree with you that you have to have a way of taking care of 4 verts, and in 4 down defenses, we would run with the #2 receiver in a position to be able to see #1 also, so we could get under the hitch. Most would try to redirect the seam runner to the inside, toward the MOF safety. I've never even heard of walling with the flat player unless you're in a zone blitz.

I don't see how you can run with #2 and see #1 from any position other than inside. From inside, you open at 45, work to get hands on and expand, and can see #1. Ideally, you're FS or C make a "SMASH" (or, CHINA...which I think is the common term now...but what do I know?) that tells him to leave #2 and rally to the flat.

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Trying to break my thoughts up into separate posts. While it is popular to have the flat player run with seams in 3 deep coverage, I feel that when in a 3 down defense (5 under 3 deep) that the hook player can expand and get under the seam route, thus letting you buzz the safety to the flat, of course you're losing a rusher.

5 under you better be able to cover anything quick stuff.

Quote:

This thought brings me to my next question. In your example, you used a 3x1 formation, but didn't explain how to take care of the #3 receiver running the post. Wouldn't you want the backside hook player to take care of that vertical route, letting the flat player cut any crosser or to take the back to the flat?

PSILB opens to #3 and walls him. BSILB is opening to the other side (walling #2 if empty, spying QB/RB if not).

Quote:

Even though some teams may let the safety try to get to the flats in Quarters vs. the drop out combination you used, I think most teams would expect the backer to get under it, leaving the safety to rob the inside breaking route by #1 if it happens.

We use an 8 yard rule. Anything under 8 you let the backer rally to it. Anything over 8 and the DB jumps it. I didn't bother putting that....because it makes it sound more complicated than it is. But yea, you don't jump a flat route.

Quote:

What about Tampa 2? Those outside backers will not run with the seam routes, won't they just redirect and play the hook zone, with the MLB running deep? (even though most have an adjustment so they can run with #2 to one side and let the Mike focus on #2 to the other side vs. spread-type formations)

Probably a gameplan thing. But with the Mike dropping to egypt and the corners running with #1 vertical the re-route isn't as important.

Of course, there's also a reason nobody runs it anymore....

Quote:

I hope I have not seemed critical, I'm just trying to pick your brain a little. I always respect your thoughts and am awaiting your reply.

Not at all. I'm just presenting ideas. Some of them mesh up well with how I'd coach my guys...other things are a compromise because it's a video game. The more people throwing out good ideas and questions, the better things will be.