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Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Old 11-29-2010, 07:17 PM   #41
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
Good stuff Sven! I admire you and LB for taking the time to provide detail & get technical. I can never bring myself to do so.

Unfortunately, I must not know what I'm doing.

Offensive playbooks need duplication of plays from formation to formation. And it needs to be retiered, starting with personnel, then all available formations with the selected personnel. The QB drop needs to be put into the play name. And the drops & primary routes need to be synchronized.
Certainly there could be fine tuning in the books, but are you telling me you can't run your offense from it? My biggest pet peave is that incredible amount of spread formations...that are really the same. It makes it tough to find the concepts I like. The same is true for the running game, it can be a little clunky to find what I want to run. I wouldn't mind a new interface to streamline what I want....

but I was really only referring to the actual plays, rather than the play calling system. The plays and concepts are outstanding.

Compared to any previous game (EA or 2K) the playbooks we have are amazing. The 2k book is an absolute joke in the passing game. There are a ton of basic concepts missing.

As for the QB/WR timing...I've been able to hit on rhythm the last couple versions. It's not as nice looking animation wise as 2k, but I've been able to throw the ball before the WR cuts for a long time.

Quote:
Defensive playbooks won't be right until they're tiered. There are not enough pre-packaged schemes and my understanding is that there's a space issue. As it stands, there are too many basic shcemes missing. Every play, I have to decide if I'm selecting based on coverage and accepting the included blitzes/stunts or selecting based on blitzes/stunts and accepting the coverage. Even with the available schemes, they're not duplicated in related fronts.

Yeah, I've been calling this engaged player mobility. The lack of it kills the timing & spacing. Outside runs & cutbacks look nothing like they should. It hurts pass rushing animations & the pocket as well.
Defensive books need some work, but we've already talked about that quite a bit.
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Old 11-29-2010, 08:35 PM   #42
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Sven,

Wish I knew how to have mulitple quotes, but I'm too stupid for that. We have a few philosphophical differences, but thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

To answer one of yours, the flat defender can see #1 and #2 by pedalling, he must be disciplined to keep his shoulders square and use his peripheral vision. To me, I'd rather force that inside receiver inside because there are 3 other defenders inside (4 if you count the deep safety) and only 1 outside (whose already occupied by the #1 receiver). It does take discipline out of the FS, and he needs to be deep enough to be able to break on throw. I feel if the seam runner is more than 21 yards from the sideline, the FS must be able to make the play.

I'm a "rules" guy, I don't like too many exceptions. If #2 is a TE, the flat defender aligns outside him. I don't want a difference just because he's flexed or a slot. Dividers due come into it, there will be times to take inside alignments.

I'm a pattern-read teacher also, so it's more of a match-up coverage for us anyway. Again, thanks for your time.
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Old 11-30-2010, 10:29 AM   #43
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven Draconian
Certainly there could be fine tuning in the books, but are you telling me you can't run your offense from it? My biggest pet peave is that incredible amount of spread formations...that are really the same. It makes it tough to find the concepts I like. The same is true for the running game, it can be a little clunky to find what I want to run. I wouldn't mind a new interface to streamline what I want....
Depends what you mean by run my offense. Are we accounting for how many times I look for a run play in I-strong only to remember it's only in the normal I-formation, for example? And I feel the same as you about the spread formations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven Draconian
but I was really only referring to the actual plays, rather than the play calling system. The plays and concepts are outstanding.
The plays are fine. The organization of the playbooks are terrible. I think we agree accept that I include the organization aspect in my opinion of the playbooks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sven Draconian
As for the QB/WR timing...I've been able to hit on rhythm the last couple versions. It's not as nice looking animation wise as 2k, but I've been able to throw the ball before the WR cuts for a long time.
I find it to be 50/50. Maybe being aware of the drop would help.
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Old 11-30-2010, 11:47 AM   #44
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With regard to the offensive playbooks, I think they've done a great job of getting some team specific plays in there, but certain playbooks have a long way to go.

--first off, I'm with Bezo about finding the right plays. A more efficient way of organizing and calling plays would be great. I should be able to run the same exact pass concept from singleback doubles as I run from shotgun doubles but that is not always the case.

--Certain NFL staples are missing from certain playbooks. Since I play with every team, this is very noticeable. Plays that every NFL team runs that are not in EVERY playbook:
WR Screen
TE Screen
Smoke Route
Bubble Screen
There are others

--When I watch teams like the Ravens, it is clear that they use the 7 step pass game and run some 15-18 yard comeback/out routes to take advantage of Flacco's arm. Martz' system is similar with regard to route depth. Chargers also like to stretch the field vertically. This is not well depicted in the playbooks. Some teams need deeper drops and deeper pass plays. Teams like the Pats should have more 3 and 5 step drops.

I understand many of the basic NFL pass concepts are in the game, but the 20% or so that makes each system different could be a lot better.

Also, I don't like what Madden did with the comeback route and swing route. The comeback is near impossible to complete now without a canned animation, and the swing/flat route results in an awkward stop and turn around from the RB instead of looking to catch and turn it upfield.

Sorry about the offensive talk, but I'd love the opinions of those in this thread.
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Old 11-30-2010, 12:39 PM   #45
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Ultimately, I think the point here comes down to complexity vs. realism, and acknowledging that they're not mutually exclusive.

I think a lot of people that EA seems to get their data from are confused by the myriad of options available pre-snap. While we're missing some basics we want, there's too much for someone new to the game to really pick up. They were developing for the existing users for so long, new users were left behind.

But Ian's quite right in saying that most of the pre-snap options are unrealistic. He's also right in saying that we need it to create the plays we want because the playbook system doesn't have them.

So an overhaul of the playbooks would permit a trimming of the presnap options... thus simplifying the game for the new user, making it more sim, and allowing all of the options the hardcore football guys want. At that point, presnap options that are realistic and make sense could be added in place of the ridiculous system we have now.

The downside is a lot of people would be pissed losing the existing presnap options. Personally, I think this is a fair trade off. Give me a play calling system that covers everything and the Madden universe will adjust in time and realize they're better off. Everything you want to call is still there, and then some, and new users wont feel so intimidated. A simplified set of preset plays could be created for a 'simple' playcalling interface (and this could be made default) that also works within GameFlow.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:02 PM   #46
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Quote:
Originally Posted by adembroski
Ultimately, I think the point here comes down to complexity vs. realism, and acknowledging that they're not mutually exclusive.

I think a lot of people that EA seems to get their data from are confused by the myriad of options available pre-snap. While we're missing some basics we want, there's too much for someone new to the game to really pick up. They were developing for the existing users for so long, new users were left behind.

But Ian's quite right in saying that most of the pre-snap options are unrealistic. He's also right in saying that we need it to create the plays we want because the playbook system doesn't have them.

So an overhaul of the playbooks would permit a trimming of the presnap options... thus simplifying the game for the new user, making it more sim, and allowing all of the options the hardcore football guys want. At that point, presnap options that are realistic and make sense could be added in place of the ridiculous system we have now.

The downside is a lot of people would be pissed losing the existing presnap options. Personally, I think this is a fair trade off. Give me a play calling system that covers everything and the Madden universe will adjust in time and realize they're better off. Everything you want to call is still there, and then some, and new users wont feel so intimidated. A simplified set of preset plays could be created for a 'simple' playcalling interface (and this could be made default) that also works within GameFlow.
Shouldn't this be addressed in the difficulty levels of the game? Wouldn't it make more sense to remove those pre-snap options from rookie/pro level and let gamers work their way up to them instead of removing them from hardcore fans?

My personal problem with presnaps is really how much the controls favor the offense. 2 button presses and you can have a wr run a completely different route while on defense you have to manualy move onto the guy you want in order to change his assignment and then get back to the guy you wish to control.

EA should adopt the other games defensive hot route methods. 1 button brings up DB, LB or Lineman icons. Then select the icon of the player you wish to change, then the d-pad or stick to change his assignment. Simpler,Quicker and Deeper.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:07 PM   #47
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palo20
--first off, I'm with Bezo about finding the right plays. A more efficient way of organizing and calling plays would be great. I should be able to run the same exact pass concept from singleback doubles as I run from shotgun doubles but that is not always the case.
Exactly! Not playing often makes it difficult to remember what formation these plays are in when it really shouldn't matter. Run plays & pattern combinations should be duplicated throughout all possible formations. Not having it this way takes away from the strategy aspect, not to mention how often I get in trouble with the play clock.

And I think many would be surprised at how often NFL teams run the same plays from different looks, especially run plays. A team like Indy might only have 4 run plays, not counting running them right/left. But they'll run outside zone from every formation with a RB in the backfield, using the formations to dictate.

Plays should not be associated with only one formation. Doing so cripples the strategy apect of offensive football. Personnel/formation conbinations are a coordinators #1 tool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palo20
--Certain NFL staples are missing from certain playbooks. Since I play with every team, this is very noticeable. Plays that every NFL team runs that are not in EVERY playbook:
WR Screen
TE Screen
Smoke Route
Bubble Screen
There are others
Yup!

Formations are another problem. Many teams are missing spread formations, certain 2-back sets, ect.

Madden needs a central system tiered as such:
  • Personnel
  • Formation so that everything from full house backfield(w/TE) to empty backfield(RB & FB split) should be available when I select base personnel, for example. We currently have a band-aid instead. Formation subs. It's tedious at best.
  • Play - This is where the central system comes in. All possible plays from the selected formation should be available. TE/slot/RB/FB patterns/responsibilities get switched around depending on formation.
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Old 11-30-2010, 01:16 PM   #48
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
Madden needs a central system tiered as such:
  • Personnel
  • Formation so that everything from full house backfield(w/TE) to empty backfield(RB & FB split) should be available when I select base personnel, for example. We currently have a band-aid instead. Formation subs. It's tedious at best.
  • Play - This is where the central system comes in. All possible plays from the selected formation should be available. TE/slot/RB/FB patterns/responsibilities get switched around depending on formation.
Since you've been able to see the inner workings of the Madden team, would it be easier to implement an offensive playcalling system like this than it would be to implement tiered defensive playcalling? Seems like defensive playcalling has been shot down and I'd assume that changing the offensive system would also be a daunting task.

Also, interested if you have any thoughts on my thread here:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...otion-sim.html

Last edited by Palo20; 11-30-2010 at 01:35 PM.
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