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Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Old 11-30-2010, 01:25 PM   #49
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by Rocky
Until the physics/animations are updated, Madden's always going to have problems with defense.

All the physics and animations in the world won't teach the player AI how to play proper defense.

You'll just get good looking bad defense.

Think about it - Madden's defense is mediocre now with the "tricks" the game uses, suctions, LB jumps, "jump of my block because you hit sprint" - now take those out and make them play as per REAL physics? What happens to real defenses when they have bad logic? Yeah. You get Arizona/Denver/Dallas "Defenses".

It would get even worse, imo, unless the game learned how to play real, solid, fundamental defense and understood defensive situations. Then you'll have closer to what you see on Sunday, imo. Nice animations and physics alone <> realism, imo.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:06 PM   #50
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by Palo20
Since you've been able to see the inner workings of the Madden team, would it be easier to implement an offensive playcalling system like this than it would be to implement tiered defensive playcalling? Seems like defensive playcalling has been shot down and I'd assume that changing the offensive system would also be a daunting task.
I think an offensive play calling system like this would be easier since the AI, plays, formations, ect really wouldn't change. And the offensive system is already tiered.

It's a bigger deal on defense because it adds so much to what the defense can do, it forces offensive AI changes. Basically, they'd have to teach the offense how to block all the new possibilites in addition to overhauling the defensive system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palo20
Also, interested if you have any thoughts on my thread here:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...otion-sim.html
I like this. Motion is definitely something called in the huddle. It needs to be that way in the game.

I'd add that there needs to be a difference between motion that is meant to reposition a player, changing the formation versus motion only meant to reveal man/zone. The latter usually ends with the WR back at his original position.

Lastly, motioning to reveal man/zone should have more control. As it stands, we can't stop the player mid-motion & bring him back.

LOL. I saw that thread and assumed it was talking about the new Wii-type technology for the PS3/Xbox 360.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:31 PM   #51
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Hit (X,X,LT) to reset a motioned WR/TE/HB etc. Yes this works before they get set at the new spot. I don't have much to offer to the convo at this time but figured I'd atleast contribute this.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:36 PM   #52
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by BezO
Depends what you mean by run my offense. Are we accounting for how many times I look for a run play in I-strong only to remember it's only in the normal I-formation, for example? And I feel the same as you about the spread formations.


The plays are fine. The organization of the playbooks are terrible. I think we agree accept that I include the organization aspect in my opinion of the playbooks.
Not going to argue this point at all. I'd love to be able to call 11 pesonel, Outside Zone, Doubles formation.

The problem could be programmnig/space. I don't really know so I don't want to speculate too much.

I think a "great' system would be what was just described as an option, and then a simplified playbook with 30 total plays in it. But, again, can they even make that sort of playbook?

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I find it to be 50/50. Maybe being aware of the drop would help.
I just watch the receivers route. Don't really pay attention to the drop...works pretty well.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:37 PM   #53
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by s38s38s
Hit (X,X,LT) to reset a motioned WR/TE/HB etc. Yes this works before they get set at the new spot. I don't have much to offer to the convo at this time but figured I'd atleast contribute this.
Doesn't hitting "X" snap the ball?
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:39 PM   #54
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by KBLover
All the physics and animations in the world won't teach the player AI how to play proper defense.

You'll just get good looking bad defense.

Think about it - Madden's defense is mediocre now with the "tricks" the game uses, suctions, LB jumps, "jump of my block because you hit sprint" - now take those out and make them play as per REAL physics? What happens to real defenses when they have bad logic? Yeah. You get Arizona/Denver/Dallas "Defenses".

It would get even worse, imo, unless the game learned how to play real, solid, fundamental defense and understood defensive situations. Then you'll have closer to what you see on Sunday, imo. Nice animations and physics alone <> realism, imo.
That is basically what HAS happened. New blocking animations, better physics...and defense took another step back.
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Old 11-30-2010, 03:50 PM   #55
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by shttymcgee
Sven,

Wish I knew how to have mulitple quotes, but I'm too stupid for that. We have a few philosphophical differences, but thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.

To answer one of yours, the flat defender can see #1 and #2 by pedalling, he must be disciplined to keep his shoulders square and use his peripheral vision. To me, I'd rather force that inside receiver inside because there are 3 other defenders inside (4 if you count the deep safety) and only 1 outside (whose already occupied by the #1 receiver). It does take discipline out of the FS, and he needs to be deep enough to be able to break on throw. I feel if the seam runner is more than 21 yards from the sideline, the FS must be able to make the play.

I'm a "rules" guy, I don't like too many exceptions. If #2 is a TE, the flat defender aligns outside him. I don't want a difference just because he's flexed or a slot. Dividers due come into it, there will be times to take inside alignments.

I'm a pattern-read teacher also, so it's more of a match-up coverage for us anyway. Again, thanks for your time.
This, I think, is one of the biggest issues we have with the Madden community as a hole. There are lots of "right" ways to do things, depending on who you talk too. There is no universally "correct" way to play.

There is, however, a WRONG way to do things. It's easy to let the tree's block out the forrest. Whether they have the seam blocker forcing the slot inside or outside is a minor detail. Having that player not exist...or ignore the seam completley, is a major issue.

I just hope people don't read our "difference" as more than that. If they came out in Madden 12 and had that player playing top shoulder and squeezing the pattern I'd be more than satisfied. As long as he actually acknowledges he has a job too do.

I like to control the seam and take away 4 verts, mesh and shallow. I think that fits a little better with the Madden game where the slot receiver is ALWAYS open. It would also, possibly, open up some plays that are staples on Saturday/Sunday but dont' really work in Madden (Bubble, hitch, Smash ect...).
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Old 11-30-2010, 04:12 PM   #56
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Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

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Originally Posted by adembroski
Ultimately, I think the point here comes down to complexity vs. realism, and acknowledging that they're not mutually exclusive.

I think a lot of people that EA seems to get their data from are confused by the myriad of options available pre-snap. While we're missing some basics we want, there's too much for someone new to the game to really pick up. They were developing for the existing users for so long, new users were left behind.

But Ian's quite right in saying that most of the pre-snap options are unrealistic. He's also right in saying that we need it to create the plays we want because the playbook system doesn't have them.

So an overhaul of the playbooks would permit a trimming of the presnap options... thus simplifying the game for the new user, making it more sim, and allowing all of the options the hardcore football guys want. At that point, presnap options that are realistic and make sense could be added in place of the ridiculous system we have now.

The downside is a lot of people would be pissed losing the existing presnap options. Personally, I think this is a fair trade off. Give me a play calling system that covers everything and the Madden universe will adjust in time and realize they're better off. Everything you want to call is still there, and then some, and new users wont feel so intimidated. A simplified set of preset plays could be created for a 'simple' playcalling interface (and this could be made default) that also works within GameFlow.
Great job on the thread, as some of you guys should definitely be on the Madden team helping them out. I agree 100% with Broski here. I always see people trying to exploit the defenses flaws by hot routing every player, and it's just not realistic. If there were plays set in the play book, there would be less cheesing online, and as he said, make it more sim. I am really hoping they go all out and making the defensive AI much better, along with the tackling.
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