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Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

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Old 11-26-2010, 12:35 PM   #1
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Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

If my DL is head up on an OL, does it present different blocking logic and results because of the alignment? If I'm in a gap does it allow for a 3-tech guy to actually penetrate? Will that be less likely if he's head up?

If it does, there's a decent chance that Madden can allow for some 2-gap play on defense.
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Old 11-26-2010, 12:56 PM   #2
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Another cool thing to add to Madden would be to decide on the defensive scheme, as in read and react (more passive style) or read on the go (more attack style).
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:25 PM   #3
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

I feel like the basic idea of one gap vs. two gap styles can be duplicated by the user, and it would be nice to have to option to implement this for the CPU.

As the user, if you want to two gap with the Nose Tackle, you can engage with the center, then read the run and either swim left or swim right to choose which gap to control. So you almost allow the suction block for a second, read the play and react.

To one gap, you can just make a move quickly right off the line and attack the backfield. I don't like how the moves are predetermined however. Actually hate it. They also need to implement better speed and bull rushes for the DLine.

So the user can make these choices, but obviously the user can't control every player. Maybe have an option where the user can choose HOW his CPU teammates play and when they use DLine moves and such.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:47 PM   #4
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palo20
I feel like the basic idea of one gap vs. two gap styles can be duplicated by the user, and it would be nice to have to option to implement this for the CPU.

As the user, if you want to two gap with the Nose Tackle, you can engage with the center, then read the run and either swim left or swim right to choose which gap to control. So you almost allow the suction block for a second, read the play and react.

To one gap, you can just make a move quickly right off the line and attack the backfield. I don't like how the moves are predetermined however. Actually hate it. They also need to implement better speed and bull rushes for the DLine.

So the user can make these choices, but obviously the user can't control every player. Maybe have an option where the user can choose HOW his CPU teammates play and when they use DLine moves and such.
Good points. I wonder if the AI kind of applies a 1 gap or 2 gap scheme based on where they initially line up. If they line up head up on a guy... does it allow for 2 gap responsibility? If they line up in a gap, will they have a better chance of penetrating? Or.. do the animations play out the same irregardless?

To put in other words, if my NG is head up on the OC, is he more likely to control both A gaps than if he's shaded in another one? Does Madden take into account initial positioning to that level of detail? I may experiment on this later today.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:49 PM   #5
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palo20
I feel like the basic idea of one gap vs. two gap styles can be duplicated by the user, and it would be nice to have to option to implement this for the CPU.

As the user, if you want to two gap with the Nose Tackle, you can engage with the center, then read the run and either swim left or swim right to choose which gap to control. So you almost allow the suction block for a second, read the play and react.

To one gap, you can just make a move quickly right off the line and attack the backfield. I don't like how the moves are predetermined however. Actually hate it. They also need to implement better speed and bull rushes for the DLine.

So the user can make these choices, but obviously the user can't control every player. Maybe have an option where the user can choose HOW his CPU teammates play and when they use DLine moves and such.
I really don't think you can two-gap all that consistently. Your idea seems like a good one, but what about the 4 techniques? They're being controlled by the cpu, so you don't really get a true 2 gap style. Besides, I think Casey was really talking about how defensive alignments affect blocking assignments, which is really where the differences b/w two-gap and 1-gap styles come into play. Look at how these two fronts affect the blocking of a strong side wide zone play:

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3....0... ......5..............
.....................................40..........2 0I.....50...........

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3......1. ......5..............
.....................................40......10... ...40I...........

In the 1st example, the nose is going to be combo blocked by the center and backside guard, while in the second example, the combination is going to happen on the 3 technique, leaving the guard to cut-off the nose. This minor adjustment in alignment (major difference in philosophy) has vastly altered the combination schemes by the offensive line.

In addition, I think it would be a good idea to categorize players as what kind of style they are best at in their ratings (1-gap penetrator, gap control, 2 gapper)
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:04 PM   #6
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shttymcgee
I really don't think you can two-gap all that consistently. Your idea seems like a good one, but what about the 4 techniques? They're being controlled by the cpu, so you don't really get a true 2 gap style. Besides, I think Casey was really talking about how defensive alignments affect blocking assignments, which is really where the differences b/w two-gap and 1-gap styles come into play. Look at how these two fronts affect the blocking of a strong side wide zone play:

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3....0... ......5..............
.....................................40..........2 0I.....50...........

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3......1. ......5..............
.....................................40......10... ...40I...........

In the 1st example, the nose is going to be combo blocked by the center and backside guard, while in the second example, the combination is going to happen on the 3 technique, leaving the guard to cut-off the nose. This minor adjustment in alignment (major difference in philosophy) has vastly altered the combination schemes by the offensive line.

In addition, I think it would be a good idea to categorize players as what kind of style they are best at in their ratings (1-gap penetrator, gap control, 2 gapper)
Yep, this is getting at what I was saying. Do the blocking adjustments change according to these kinds of alignments? Are there different percentages of results available? Is it harder for a DL to get past an OL who he's head up with in comparison to a DL in a gap?
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:16 PM   #7
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shttymcgee
I really don't think you can two-gap all that consistently. Your idea seems like a good one, but what about the 4 techniques? They're being controlled by the cpu, so you don't really get a true 2 gap style. Besides, I think Casey was really talking about how defensive alignments affect blocking assignments, which is really where the differences b/w two-gap and 1-gap styles come into play. Look at how these two fronts affect the blocking of a strong side wide zone play:

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3....0... ......5..............
.....................................40..........2 0I.....50...........

...............................................T.. ........................
.................................................. ....F.................
...............................................Q.. .......................
...............................TE...T...G...C...G. ..T...............
...............................R.........3......1. ......5..............
.....................................40......10... ...40I...........

In the 1st example, the nose is going to be combo blocked by the center and backside guard, while in the second example, the combination is going to happen on the 3 technique, leaving the guard to cut-off the nose. This minor adjustment in alignment (major difference in philosophy) has vastly altered the combination schemes by the offensive line.

In addition, I think it would be a good idea to categorize players as what kind of style they are best at in their ratings (1-gap penetrator, gap control, 2 gapper)

Very nice breakdown. I definitely wasn't implying that the current system was perfect, just that you can sometimes duplicate a few things you see on Sunday.

I think the biggest programming issues include creating all of the animations necessary to duplicate the bolded part. How would you go about doing that? How can they program defense to involve the proper one and two gap techniques? What about the 3-4 defenses that one gap more often and the 4-3 defenses that two gap the nose? There is so much more that they can do, I just feel they may be limited as to how to accomplish the task.
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Old 11-26-2010, 03:18 PM   #8
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Re: Does Madden's OL/DL interaction take into account DL gap alignment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CreatineKasey
Yep, this is getting at what I was saying. Do the blocking adjustments change according to these kinds of alignments? Are there different percentages of results available? Is it harder for a DL to get past an OL who he's head up with in comparison to a DL in a gap?
Now these are some solid questions and I wonder if this is implemented properly if the EA Team could "trick" the AI into looking liking different schemes even if the defense isn't properly programmed to do so.
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