"Zone defence is broken" (Long (and actually thought through, I hope))

[thundergatti]

Quote: Originally Posted by sportyguyfl31

That's the most damning thing, IMO. I could live with zone coverage being how it is, if this one fundamental aspect of football was fixed. I would LOVE to play a Colts style of defense..with 2 elite speed rush De's bringing the noise in must pass situations, but that style of D is impossible to play in this game. The awareness, play recognition, zone, and man coverage ratings should have some impact on zone defense. There has to be a way to program guys to "think". Like using the awarness rating to determine how efective a player is at knowing when to pass off a receiver to help etc.. Ahh..whatever..EA shows us no indication that they are willing to make the type of game we are asking for.

I believe this complaint, a common one, is totally spurious. Online or in franchise, if one controls a talented DE and makes the individual moves, pressure is created on most plays. Try playing online with the Giants, and only control Tuck on defense, and see if you can't get pressure.

[sportyguyfl31]

Quote: Originally Posted by thundergatti

I believe this complaint, a common one, is totally spurious. Online or in franchise, if one controls a talented DE and makes the individual moves, pressure is created on most plays. Try playing online with the Giants, and only control Tuck on defense, and see if you can't get pressure.

User controlled, I agree 100%.

But what if I want to play as a MLB, or a robber coverage Safety to take away the middle, which is where everyone throws 9 out of 10 pass plays?

Why isnt the AI controlled Justin Tuck playing with the same speed and nastiness as when I user him?

Why isnt he mixing up his pass rush moves, and using counter moves, when his first effort is stymied?

Why isnt he taking the proper outisde shoulder edge rush angle?

[whoRweNATION]

Zone D would work better if EA had fixed pass rushing. Madden 10 was still worse but if you don't user control a defensive lineman, you get zero pressure from the defensive line.

No pass rush=no 3-4 defense too.

[thundergatti]

Quote: Originally Posted by sportyguyfl31

User controlled, I agree 100%. But what if I want to play as a MLB, or a robber coverage Safety to take away the middle, which is where everyone throws 9 out of 10 pass plays? Why isnt the AI controlled Justin Tuck playing with the same speed and nastiness as when I user him? Why isnt he mixing up his pass rush moves, and using counter moves, when his first effort is stymied? Why isnt he taking the proper outisde shoulder edge rush angle?

You know, in real life, too, 100% effort is not given on most plays. Second, there is something peculiar to D-Line play. I read a book that came out a couple months ago, life inside the NFL or something, and I recall an offensive lineman talkinga bout how Dlinemen talk so much smack all game. The o-lineman shuts him out all game, and then the D lineman comes through with one sack, and boom, he's a hero, on sportscenter etc. We gotta have some perspective on D-line play.

Plus, your questions completely neglect any consideration of the offensive lineman's talents, his efforts etc. Further, you know, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want to patrol the middle, and have every other player on D play "human-line," but its just apparently not practical for a video game. Someone's signature on this site says something about that in this regard, "anyone who expects a $60 game to out-manuever you is unrealistic". I'm not saying the developers shouldn't strive for it, but it doesn't seem within reach, the game's been going for 15 years!

I appreciate though, as human v. human, you can definitely get pressure, and then, you just gotta have faith in the personnel behind you to do their jobs.

I will concede to you, though, that when you play as a MLB, or secondary player, the D-line does not really hold up its end of the bargain as well as the it does when you control a d-lineman. IN other words, computer LBs and secondary players play better than computer DL's, which I think is your point.

Human v. human thouhg, playing as a d-lineman is great, as the stability of the offense is greatly impacted, forcing bad throws, etc., just as in real life.

NOt to be a madden apologist, the play-calling AI is not good, not enough plays in total (they apparently took a bunch out this year out of a misguided effort to make things accessible), and I dearly want penalties. Especially pass interference (off and def).

[sportyguyfl31]

Quote: Originally Posted by thundergatti

You know, in real life, too, 100% effort is not given on most plays. Second, there is something peculiar to D-Line play. I read a book that came out a couple months ago, life inside the NFL or something, and I recall an offensive lineman talkinga bout how Dlinemen talk so much smack all game. The o-lineman shuts him out all game, and then the D lineman comes through with one sack, and boom, he's a hero, on sportscenter etc. We gotta have some perspective on D-line play. Plus, your questions completely neglect any consideration of the offensive lineman's talents, his efforts etc. Further, you know, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want to patrol the middle, and have every other player on D play "human-line," but its just apparently not practical for a video game. Someone's signature on this site says something about that in this regard, "anyone who expects a $60 game to out-manuever you is unrealistic". I'm not saying the developers shouldn't strive for it, but it doesn't seem within reach, the game's been going for 15 years! I appreciate though, as human v. human, you can definitely get pressure, and then, you just gotta have faith in the personnel behind you to do their jobs. I will concede to you, though, that when you play as a MLB, or secondary player, the D-line does not really hold up its end of the bargain as well as the it does when you control a d-lineman. IN other words, computer LBs and secondary players play better than computer DL's, which I think is your point. Human v. human thouhg, playing as a d-lineman is great, as the stability of the offense is greatly impacted, forcing bad throws, etc., just as in real life. NOt to be a madden apologist, the play-calling AI is not good, not enough plays in total (they apparently took a bunch out this year out of a misguided effort to make things accessible), and I dearly want penalties. Especially pass interference (off and def).

I do agree with that, and I do like the game a lot actually..its a ton of fun.

You are correct. DL's work all game to maybe make 1 or 2 impact plays in a game.

My overall point is that I would like to see better technique displayed, in general.

Id just like to see the attention applied to how LBs and DBs animate and impact the game applied t othe trenches also.

[grunt]

The need for dominant de to play as dominant de is needed. Zones are passive as best and only works with heat.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by sportyguyfl31

I do agree with that, and I do like the game a lot actually..its a ton of fun. You are correct. DL's work all game to maybe make 1 or 2 impact plays in a game. My overall point is that I would like to see better technique displayed, in general. Id just like to see the attention applied to how LBs and DBs animate and impact the game applied t othe trenches also.

Don't agree with that! LOL

While I feel the spirit of what thunder is saying, what he actual said is off base, IMO.

The whole point of Justin Tuck or any other specialist at their respected position, is that you can count on their effort. It's the average, mediocre and below average players on the squad, you have to worry about.

If I was playing with the Redskins, London Fletcher, Orakpo and Hall should be what I can count on, my job should be worrying about controlling Reed Doughty and putting the other average players in position to be successful.

I have had a saying for NFL football video games for a long time. "I don't control Pro Bowlers!" LOL. Those guys should play their position far better on their own than with me controlling them.

The reason those star DE's don't usually get more than 1 or 2 sacks is because teams focus on stopping them and take there chances against the other guys.

In Madden, if someone wants to leave their QB's blindside or whatever protected one on one all game against Tuck, unless they have gameplanned ALL 3-step drop pass plays, Tuck should wreak havoc against all but the most elite of OL. Even against an elite OL, he should get more pressure when not user controlled than Madden allows him to now.

[thundergatti]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

Don't agree with that! LOL While I feel the spirit of what thunder is saying, what he actual said is off base, IMO. The whole point of Justin Tuck or any other specialist at their respected position, is that you can count on their effort. It's the average, mediocre and below average players on the squad, you have to worry about. If I was playing with the Redskins, London Fletcher, Orakpo and Hall should be what I can count on, my job should be worrying about controlling Reed Doughty and putting the other average players in position to be successful. I have had a saying for NFL football video games for a long time. "I don't control Pro Bowlers!" LOL. Those guys should play their position far better on their own than with me controlling them. The reason those star DE's don't usually get more than 1 or 2 sacks is because teams focus on stopping them and take there chances against the other guys. In Madden, if someone wants to leave their QB's blindside or whatever protected one on one all game against Tuck, unless they have gameplanned ALL 3-step drop pass plays, Tuck should wreak havoc against all but the most elite of OL. Even against an elite OL, he should get more pressure when not user controlled than Madden allows him to now.

I appreciate your input, but, if I get your correct, you basically want "human caliber control/effort at all positions, with you controlling the weaker positions. The following numbers don't correspond to your questions, but:

(1) You basically want to turn the Redskins (I believe a horrible defense team), to play like the 85 bears, in the name of simulation? What you described would be less sim than the way it is now. The way it is now, like I was saying, you have to make a choice, a cost-benefit analysis, of whether you want to devote your energy to a pass rush or roaming in coverage, no a given play. I like this. It is strategy. Its obviously not perfect, but I think its a decent way to manage the problem that comes with omnipotence (like i said, then you could just control the weakest guys and have a superior advantage). The way that Madden does it as a player, while not ideal or most life-like, is fun enough because of the element of strategy.

(2) I don't know if what you are saying about game-planning away from the stars on the DL really tells the whole story. I think the DE is really such a unique position, you can't really completely take him out of a game, the way you would a CB (by not throwing to him), or a DT (not running at him). Although there are some subtle things (roll outs), doubleteams and other things I'm sure I don't even know about.

(3) To make the things work out as you describe, though, I think you'd really have to lower ratings of all but the top guys. Maybe have like two or three guys at each position be an A, and everyone else B, C's, but have the drop off be dramatic. Because you should'nt be able to take a team like the Skins (no offense) play dominant, crazy D just by controlling their weaker players. Your bias aside, I'm telling you, DeAngelo, London, are not game changers.

(4) I think its exaggerated what you say, pro bowlers don't play like pro bowlers in the game. They definitely do. Maybe their impact is not as pronounced as you would like, but I don't think may people would disagree that Revis, Freeney, have dynamic personalities and impacts in the gameplay.