Casual Vs Hardcore- Labels Exploited For Profit And Excuses

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

If your nephew buys the game every year, he's not a casual fan. He may be uninformed regarding the core aspects of pro football, but that doesn't necessarily make him a casual fan. This idea that the "casuals" will be scared away by realism is ridiculous. Not everyone will have an appreciation for everything that people, on here, have been clamoring for, but it wouldn't turn them off. A franchise mode with all the bells and whistles of HC09 won't turn people away. Making size and strength matter won't turn people away. Adding real-time physics, whenever it's added, won't scare people away. Eliminating "bowling pin tackling" won't scare people away. If sales weren't declining, you could make the argument that adding these things wouldn't do EA any good because people don't care, but sales are declining. Apparently people care, and they want to see this title advance.

Sorry, you don't know my nephew.

He took HC back after 2 days. Said it was too complex and the game play too boring.

If he's not a "Casual Fan", does he sound like a hard core fan to you?

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Sorry, you don't know my cousin. He took HC back after 2 days. Said it was too complex and the game play too boring. If he's not a "Casual Fan", does he sound like a hard core fan to you?

I also subscribe to putting casual fan in quotes. These labels are too subjective.

If someone is a hardcore gamer, do they have to be that for every single game? Just because your cousin took back HC because it was too complicated for him, doesn't necessarily make him a "casual fan" overall. Could be he just isn't into HC.

For instance, I have several friends, that would be considered hardcore gamers, who thought that Demon's Souls was too infuriating. But they don't run from every game that is hard. They play Ninja Gaiden and other games that are equally infuriating. Could be that the sacrifice for Demon's Souls, wasn't worth the enjoyment out of that particular game. Not that they are casuals.

I don't know your cousin, obviously, but not liking HC, in and of itself, doesn't mean he isn't a hardcore. He could play many other "hardcore" games. Or maybe he doesn't play any lol.

His feelings on Madden or HC though, probably don't tell the whole story.

[roadman]

Sorry, folks, it's been a rough few days.

I meant my nephew above, the above nephew is a cousin to our children.

Anyway, LT, not much to disagree with your post.

To me, my nephew is a casual fan with hard core tendencies.

Both casual and hard core are very subjective categories.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Sorry, folks, it's been a rough few days. I meant my nephew above, the above nephew is a cousin to our children. Anyway, LT, not much to disagree with your post. To me, my nephew is a casual fan with hard core tendencies. Both casual and hard core are very subjective categories.

I thought he started out as a nephew, but it was a long weekend of partying, so I thought I'd just go with it lol.

[Hova57]

Like the OP said these labels just confuse and hurt the general direction of the game. It just give the Marketing Dept ammo for something that isn't a real target. The marketing department doesn't really know the people they are selling too, nor do they care the perceived demographic is what they are shooting for. The dev. know who they want to make the game for because they fall into the same group of people. "People who want a good football game" That should be the label not hardcore or casual. Madden dev could save alot a sleep if they made a game for everyone giving different options for sim play, arcade play and so forth allowing the customization per sliders to fit. Madden 11 mantra wasn't necessary this year. But to show a perceived group that games could be played faster they went with it. I don't think it made a bit of difference on why who did or didn't buy the game.

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Sorry, you don't know my nephew. He took HC back after 2 days. Said it was too complex and the game play too boring. If he's not a "Casual Fan", does he sound like a hard core fan to you?

HC09 was a different animal. If you're not into all the intricacies that are involved, there's nothing else, you're just simming everything. You said that your nephew is more of an online, or head to head gamer. He shouldn't have bought HC09 in the first place. Madden would be different because he could play the games and sim the stuff he didn't feel like dealing with. Better presentation and more realistic game-play won't turn people like your nephew away. They'll either love it, or be indifferent to it.

As for whether or not your nephew is a casual fan or not, that depends on how much he buys the game. Has bought the last three Maddens ? I think a lot of people are under the impression that the "hardcore" crowd essentially has the same values. This is untrue. Some value game-play the most; some value franchise mode the most, and some value presentation the most. Some are online gamers, and others are not. Where we, the hardcore gamers, are all similar is our interest, year in and year out, in Madden and other football videos when those other football games are actually released. For Madden to ensure that their sales start to increase, they'll need to be hitting on all cylinders. The game-play, franchise mode, and online play ( franchise and head to head) have to be solid, not just one of the three.

[tlc12576]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Otherwise, I'll come off as if I'm defending EA and that's not the case. I will say that I don't get the whole 'non-sim' element lingo that you're talking about. OTP is a different way to play the game -- nothing more. So what makes it so "non-sim"?

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Have to agree with rgiles here tlc. Adding OTP is a feature. It is neither sim nor un-sim. It makes the game no more sim or un-sim than if you added co-op to any shooter. It's just a different mode. Now, we could argue whether or not EA/ Tiburon should be spending time on anything other than improving gameplay, based on its current state, but that (unfortunately) isn't our call. There are many customers that think that the gameplay is already perfectly fine (as incredible as that may be to me, but who am I?), and it isn't inconceivable (probably, highly probable in fact) that the devs are pretty satisfied with their work too (I doubt that they go home and think to themselves what terrible programmers they are) so it should surprise no one if they spent time, even a considerable amount of time, on something other than gameplay. If it were up to me, they'd spend the next 4yrs without releasing the game and totally revamp it (exaggerating... a little bit lol), but I don't expect them to feel the way that I do, and neither should you. In a perfect world, the world would be perfect.

About my sim vs non-sim reference, I am talking about something that is or is not simulating an actual NFL counter-part. Online/offline franchise, broadcast presentation, uniforms, run blocking AI, sideline catches, Gameplan/Gameflow, etc, are attempting to simulate actual things in the NFL. However, OTP, MUT, Madden coins, "Beyond Broadcast", etc, are EA's "artistic" ideas with NFL themes but do NOT simulate something in the actual NFL.

OTP, which according to Ian took up most of the dev cycle for Madden 11, is not an NFL simulation mode. It allows up to 6 users, 3 on the same team, to basically play a game of backyard football, with NFL teams and players. Boost packs for ratings can be purchased and/or earned to increase player ratings. This mode isn't much more than a NFL version of NBA Jam with more authentic graphics and a full complement of AI players.

That said, I don't have a problem with EA adding OTP, MUT or OPP to Madden. However, anything non-sim being added to an ALLEGED simulation game should not be the main focus and consume the majority of the games development time, especially when the sim things in the game clearly need improvement and more attention.

[stp2081]

Quote: Originally Posted by tlc12576

This mode isn't much more than a NFL version of NBA Jam with more authentic graphics and a full complement of AI players.

Welcome to NFL Jam!!!

Seriously though, I couldn't agree more with your comment that "anything non-sim...should not be the main focus and consume the majority of the games development time, especially when the sim things in the game clearly need improvement and more attention."