Shorter or longer animations.....

[mjhyankees]

I confess to not seeing much of what everyone is talking about. Yes, occasionally a tackle doesn't look to good, or a guy stands around too much but I'm not seeing a major problem there. The tackling looks better than old gen and if you have the reaction at a decent level, i get lots of multiple tackles and pile ups (at least that the sense of what's happening, perhaps in slow motion only one guy tackles and the others just jump in...either way when i'm playing it feels ok).
I'm not saying anyone's wrong here....just that I'm not noticing a big problem. I'd like to see them fix the franchise mode stuff and make the sliders preset a little better to get more realistic stats before any of this....but that's just me.
I'm new to next gen so i may be still caught up in the improved graphics etc.

[marshallfever]

Quote: Originally Posted by mjhyankees

I confess to not seeing much of what everyone is talking about. Yes, occasionally a tackle doesn't look to good, or a guy stands around too much but I'm not seeing a major problem there. The tackling looks better than old gen and if you have the reaction at a decent level, i get lots of multiple tackles and pile ups (at least that the sense of what's happening, perhaps in slow motion only one guy tackles and the others just jump in...either way when i'm playing it feels ok). I'm not saying anyone's wrong here....just that I'm not noticing a big problem. I'd like to see them fix the franchise mode stuff and make the sliders preset a little better to get more realistic stats before any of this....but that's just me. I'm new to next gen so i may be still caught up in the improved graphics etc.

You probably don't know what i'm referring too. In many cases, at least when i played the demo for 11 and the retail version of 10, situations occur when a the running back is branching out of an animation and the defenders around him can't interact with the ball carrier. I've seen it to the point where 3 people attempt to tackle the ball carrier and dive at nothing because his animation doesn't allow him to be hit. Its what usually happens when you run through the middle of a pile up and get past the secondary for a BIG gain.

I was just thinking that it was because of the branching short animations that the game didn't understand what was happening. I assumed that with longer animations the ball carrier would need more time to break out of the tackle allowing more defenders the time to get in on the tackle creating a gang tackle.

In 09 the issue was sort of similar. Before a defender could get in on the tackle to cause a gang tackle the play was already over and the ball carrier was down. There weren't alot of instances where there was a group tackle. At that point the game was usually a one vs one affair; you either hit me and take me down or i break your tackle without any interference from another defender.



This video is a great example of what i mean. Usually it happens when a player is breaking out of tackles but in this video the ball carrier goes down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9hf...eature=related

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by youALREADYknow

Yes there is. If you want to call yourself a simulation, then realism is right and everything else is wrong. If you want to call yourself an arcade game, then playability and fun is right and everything else is wrong. You can't have it both ways. Madden is still being marketed as a sim the last time I checked, therefore the current implementation of motion and animation is not correct.

Here is the thing though. Not being able to do anything until an animation finishes is not simulation either.

A player can make any move that he wants to make at anytime. Doesn't mean it will work. Doesn't mean that he won't fall flat on his ***, but he could still try to do it.

I don't like the way that Madden is designed and prefer the way that 2K is, but to say that having total control to branch out of animations is arcadey, is not being completely fair. What makes Madden arcadey, is the way that they handle their design of total control.

Players should ALWAYS be able to interrupt animations in a sports game. Making invincible animations isn't the answer to real life. The answer is making real life consequences for doing things that aren't possible, and having animations in the game that represent those consequences. I.E. allowing you to change direction when ever you want to, but having animations in the game, or done on the fly, that represent you not being able to pull off what you attempted, if this is not physically possible.

Now I'm not saying that 2K has no branching animations, or that it doesn't do a better job of representing these consequences in the game, but a reason why, not the only reason, but definitely a reason, why 2K appears to play better than Madden, is because it animates better. One reason, but not the only reason, it animates better, because of the longer animations. Again, I prefer this to Madden's design, but that's only because, as stated above, Madden gives you all the control, but none of the consequences, and none of the animations to represent those consequences.

You are right about one thing though. There is a right and wrong. The right thing is to have total control, and consequences, and a slew of animations pre-captured, or done on the fly, that represent those consequences. Neither game does this.

2K does it better, but neither does it "right".

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by marshallfever

You probably don't know what i'm referring too. In many cases, at least when i played the demo for 11 and the retail version of 10, situations occur when a the running back is branching out of an animation and the defenders around him can't interact with the ball carrier. I've seen it to the point where 3 people attempt to tackle the ball carrier and dive at nothing because his animation doesn't allow him to be hit. Its what usually happens when you run through the middle of a pile up and get past the secondary for a BIG gain. I was just thinking that it was because of the branching short animations that the game didn't understand what was happening. I assumed that with longer animations the ball carrier would need more time to break out of the tackle allowing more defenders the time to get in on the tackle creating a gang tackle. In 09 the issue was sort of similar. Before a defender could get in on the tackle to cause a gang tackle the play was already over and the ball carrier was down. There weren't alot of instances where there was a group tackle. At that point the game was usually a one vs one affair; you either hit me and take me down or i break your tackle without any interference from another defender. This video is a great example of what i mean. Usually it happens when a player is breaking out of tackles but in this video the ball carrier goes down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9hf...eature=related

Short animations aren't the cause of this. If anything, the animations where a runner breaks out of a "gang" tackle, I put gang in quotes because there really is no gang tackling in Madden, those break tackle animations are extremely long.

The problem isn't the length of the animation. The problem is that the game is set up to only allow, except for rare preconceived circumstances, one on one animation engagements. All of those one on one battles are determined by dice roll, with ratings somewhere in the mix. Those dice roll/ ratings trigger an animation. Once that happens, nothing else can interfere until the animation has ended.

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my post prior to this. While shorter animations may look worse than longer ones, that doesn't mean that longer is always better. What's more important is whether the animations are undefeatable until they play out, and what other accompanying animations are present, to represent all possible outcomes.

This is something that no game, sports or otherwise, does "right". Probably will never be possible as long as the 360, and it's spacialy challenged DVD format is the lead console for most games. Sorry... that's just reality lol. Some games, just do a better job than others.

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by youALREADYknow

Yes there is. If you want to call yourself a simulation, then realism is right and everything else is wrong. If you want to call yourself an arcade game, then playability and fun is right and everything else is wrong. You can't have it both ways. Madden is still being marketed as a sim the last time I checked, therefore the current implementation of motion and animation is not correct.

Exactly, Madden is intended to simulate the game of NFL football. Madden attempts to mimic stadiums, teams uniforms, player faces, NFL rules, so it should mimic movement in the NFL. The reason why the movement is less realistic in Madden is that it's easier to create animations if you're not totally limiting yourself to realism. Look at all the other sports titles; they're all going for realism, and they're thriving. They're sales aren't declining.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

Exactly, Madden is intended to simulate the game of NFL football. Madden attempts to mimic stadiums, teams uniforms, player faces, NFL rules, so it should mimic movement in the NFL. The reason why the movement is less realistic in Madden is that it's easier to create animations if you're not totally limiting yourself to realism. Look at all the other sports titles; they're all going for realism, and they're thriving. They're sales aren't declining.

Again, there is more to it than just having long animations. And again, this isn't being fair.

2K looks and plays better than Madden, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that there aren't inherent problems with the way that their game is designed, as well.

Uninterruptable animations is not sim. If anything, getting tied up in an uninterruptable animation is a sure way of reminding you that you are playing a game, and breaking immersion.

Total control, and animations to convey every possible outcome is simulation. This, probably not being possible on current hardware, I prefer the way that 2K goes about their design, but to say that they do it "right", is neither fair, nor accurate.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Here is the thing though. Not being able to do anything until an animation finishes is not simulation either.

The human body has limits. Madden allows the virtual player to ignore those limits. Until it addresses this issue, the spacing & timing of Madden will be off.

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

A player can make any move that he wants to make at anytime. Doesn't mean it will work. Doesn't mean that he won't fall flat on his ***, but he could still try to do it. Players should ALWAYS be able to interrupt animations in a sports game. Making invincible animations isn't the answer to real life. The answer is making real life consequences for doing things that aren't possible, and having animations in the game that represent those consequences. I.E. allowing you to change direction when ever you want to, but having animations in the game, or done on the fly, that represent you not being able to pull off what you attempted, if this is not physically possible.

I think there should be branching points, but in realistic places. And I'd prefer the game not allow impossible feats instead of allowing me to try them only to fall.

Playing a sport, we are aware of our bodies so we don't have to look at our legs to see if a move is possible. We know our limits. In a video game, if we're allowed to try things that are not possible, we'd have to watch the player we're controlling in addition to watching the defense. I prefer not having to watch my player's foot to see if it hit the ground so I can make a cut when I should be looking at the defender so I can time my move.

There's a balance, probably different for many of us. So if I had to lean one way, I'd prefer the animations be too long for the sake of realism. It's been a long while, but I don't remember feeling stuck in 2K animations.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

The human body has limits. Madden allows the virtual player to ignore those limits. Until it addresses this issue, the spacing & timing of Madden will be off. I think there should be branching points, but in realistic places. And I'd prefer the game not allow impossible feats instead of allowing me to try them only to fall. Playing a sport, we are aware of our bodies so we don't have to look at our legs to see if a move is possible. We know our limits. In a video game, if we're allowed to try things that are not possible, we'd have to watch the player we're controlling in addition to watching the defense. I prefer not having to watch my player's foot to see if it hit the ground so I can make a cut when I should be looking at the defender so I can time my move. There's a balance, probably different for many of us. So if I had to lean one way, I'd prefer the animations be too long for the sake of realism. It's been a long while, but I don't remember feeling stuck in 2K animations.

As I said, I prefer the approach that 2K took to tackle the design of a sim sports game, but to say that this is "true to life" or simulation, is false.

The point I am making is that they are design choices. Neither is perfect. In real life you have total control. Madden has this. In real life their are physical boundaries. Madden doesn't have this.

2K, doesn't really have either. It's "consequences" for doing something that isn't humanly possible, is to... not allow you to even attempt what isn't humanly possible.

Take Top Spin 3, again, for example. There is a lot of momentum in that game. The momentum is done by having your player, continue to keep moving, after you let go of the stick. Now in real life, there is gravity. There is momentum. It does take time for a moving object to come to rest. But here is the thing. If I was running, and I wanted to come to a complete stop, I probably could in many circumstances. In Top Spin 3, that isn't really an option. Now in some circumstances, I might slip and break my neck if I tried to stop too hard, depending on how fast I was going, but the choice would be up to me to break my neck or not. With 2K, you don't have that choice.

All things equal, and games not being perfect representations of real life, I prefer the way that 2K handles "reality" to EA/Tiburon, but that's my point in a nutshell. It is my preference. It is not that they nailed reality.

All I have been saying is that how 2K does it is not completely realistic either, and it is unfair to say that it is, regardless of whether we may prefer it to how EA/Tiburon does it.