Shorter or longer animations.....

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Again, there is more to it than just having long animations. And again, this isn't being fair. 2K looks and plays better than Madden, in my opinion, but that doesn't mean that there aren't inherent problems with the way that their game is designed, as well. Uninterruptable animations is not sim. If anything, getting tied up in an uninterruptable animation is a sure way of reminding you that you are playing a game, and breaking immersion. Total control, and animations to convey every possible outcome is simulation. This, probably not being possible on current hardware, I prefer the way that 2K goes about their design, but to say that they do it "right", is neither fair, nor accurate.

You have to remember that you're critiquing a game that is almost four years old. Comparing APF's animations to M11's isn't fair. If APF 2k11 was made, who knows, those long animations might have been interruptible.

Compare Madden 08's animations to APF.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

You have to remember that you're critiquing a game that is almost four years old. Comparing APF's animations to M11's isn't fair. If APF 2k11 was made, who knows, those long animations might have been interruptible. Compare Madden 08's animations to APF.

That's the game I am comparing it to, and the game that I use as a reference for all of my 2K points, unless I'm talking about presentation.

Doesn't change a thing. Uninterruptable animations are rarely a good thing, and 2K sports games have them. Madden also has a ton of them too, like the break tackle animations that no one can join in on, that I mentioned previously. That's a good example of how bad uninterruptable animations can be.

For 2K, longer animations are a design choice that they feel best represents real life sports being played. Compared to how other games like Madden handle this issue, I would agree that it is better. It just isn't totally realistic either. That's all I'm saying.

And not to belabor the point, but if I am comparing Madden 11 animations to 2K5, that still isn't a favorable comparison for Madden 11.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

The point I am making is that they are design choices. Neither is perfect. In real life you have total control. Madden has this. In real life their are physical boundaries. Madden doesn't have this.

Probably semantics, but I don't believe we have total control of our bodies. Everyone has to deal with gravity, physics, ect. On an individual level, we all have different abilities. You only have control up to where gravity & physics meet your personal abilities.

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

2K, doesn't really have either. It's "consequences" for doing something that isn't humanly possible, is to... not allow you to even attempt what isn't humanly possible.

What 2K is doing is handling body awareness for us.

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

If I was running, and I wanted to come to a complete stop, I probably could in many circumstances...

Yeah, when you're not moving so fast that you can't stop.

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

All I have been saying is that how 2K does it is not completely realistic either, and it is unfair to say that it is, regardless of whether we may prefer it to how EA/Tiburon does it.

I'm only looking for it to simulate reality. I'm OK with the CPU handling the body awareness to do so. Since we can't be aware of a virtual body's limitations, it's more than a preference IMO.

Think of what it would take to know each player's abilities, recognize how fast he's moving, watch his feet to see when he can plant, time the stick move with all of that, all while watching the defenders you're trying to avoid.

All of the personal stuff is instinctive. It's why you rarely see someone plant their foot only to snap their leg off. Most can recognize how fast they're moving, their leg strength, ect without having to look at themselves or think about it. This body awareness has to come from somewhere.

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

That's the game I am comparing it to, and the game that I use as a reference for all of my 2K points, unless I'm talking about presentation. Doesn't change a thing. Uninterruptable animations are rarely a good thing, and 2K sports games have them. Madden also has a ton of them too, like the break tackle animations that no one can join in on, that I mentioned previously. That's a good example of how bad uninterruptable animations can be. For 2K, longer animations are a design choice that they feel best represents real life sports being played. Compared to how other games like Madden handle this issue, I would agree that it is better. It just isn't totally realistic either. That's all I'm saying. And not to belabor the point, but if I am comparing Madden 11 animations to 2K5, that still isn't a favorable comparison for Madden 11.

un-interruptible animations are going to happen. It's not possible to rid a game of them, especially a football game, entirely. Nothing, in video games, is totally realistic. The key is to get as close to that as possible, and, as far as game-play, 2k8 has done a better job of that than Madden 11.

Had 2k11 been released, I'm sure there would be less animations that weren't interruptible.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Probably semantics, but I don't believe we have total control of our bodies. Everyone has to deal with gravity, physics, ect. On an individual level, we all have different abilities. You only have control up to where gravity & physics meet your personal abilities. What 2K is doing is handling body awareness for us. Yeah, when you're not moving so fast that you can't stop. I'm only looking for it to simulate reality. I'm OK with the CPU handling the body awareness to do so. Since we can't be aware of a virtual body's limitations, it's more than a preference IMO. Think of what it would take to know each player's abilities, recognize how fast he's moving, watch his feet to see when he can plant, time the stick move with all of that, all while watching the defenders you're trying to avoid. All of the personal stuff is instinctive. It's why you rarely see someone plant their foot only to snap their leg off. Most can recognize how fast they're moving, their leg strength, ect without having to look at themselves or think about it. This body awareness has to come from somewhere.

Right. 2K handles body awareness for us by limiting what you can attempt to do. In life, I am limited by what I can actually do, but I can attempt to do anything I want. Do you see the key difference in that statement?

We both agree that we prefer how 2K handles movement, I just will not go so far as to say that it is the perfect system.

Their design philosophy is better, but better does not equate to perfect. That's all I'm saying.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

Interruptible animations are going to happen. It's not possible to rid a game of them, especially a football game, entirely. Nothing, in video games, is totally realistic. The key is to get as close to that as possible, and, as far as game-play, 2k8 has done a better job of that than Madden 11. Had 2k11 been released, I'm sure there would be less animations that weren't interruptible.

I don't disagree with anything you've said.

The goal is to create as close a facsimile to real life as possible, given hardware limitations and developer skill. I would agree that 2K does a better job of this than most, but I will not go so far as to say that there are no problems associated with their design choices either.

I just want to be fair.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Their design philosophy is better, but better does not equate to perfect. That's all I'm saying.

Agreed! But I don't think there's such a thing, especially with so many varying opinions. I just wish EA would aim to make the most realistic video football game possible and allow people to love it. No one is going to stop playing Madden because it's too real. And it can be more realistic without being more difficult or complex.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Agreed! But I don't think there's such a thing, especially with so many varying opinions. I just wish EA would aim to make the most realistic video football game possible and allow people to love it. No one is going to stop playing Madden because it's too real. And it can be more realistic without being more difficult or complex.

I think this spot right here, is what is referred to as common ground lol.