Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

[scores87]

Quote: Originally Posted by guaps

While this is an interesting discussion about Tiburons (not EAs) approach towards player ratings, I don't feel it'll amount to anything other than chatter. Ratings have become a HUGE part of Madden's marketing and keeps the game in the gamers minds throughout the season. Madden can never have APF 2k8-style 'ratings/abilities' because then they'd lose the weekly updates, which helps feed the marketing machine. There are many valid points in this thread and Dan's work and insight with the ratings should be applauded, but as long as the underlying ratings system (and gameplay) is as flawed as it is, then the game will still play like the arcade football game we've come to know. As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead. While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect. I personally prefer APF 2k8's 'ratings' model because of its simplicity, but of the ratings systems I've tried, I have a sweet spot for FIFA 11's for four reasons: Firstly, because height and weight matter just as much as ratings (they have a locomotion engine that allows for different body types) meaning that two players with identical ratings but different height and weight won't play the same. Secondly, because I feel ratings are scaled with respect for the game and not for marketing purposes (highest OVR is 90 and highest individual rating is 96). Thirdly, because the ratings that the game shipped with are still excellent to play with to this day. And lastly, because you can compete with a 'mediocre' team if you combine complementary players that fit each other and your strategy/playing style instead of just the best rated. However, as I state above I believe many of the excellent points in this thread will mostly become chatter that EA will choose to dismiss, even though we know that they (adembroski) have read the post.

agree APF ratings are great because they are simple but there isn't enough difference between players and FIFA well FIFA is great

[Claymaker52]

Quote: Originally Posted by jeremym480

When I saw that pic I thought the interview was going to be about M12 adding scouting combine.

You and me both. But by the sounds of it Mark Ingram isn't going to be very usable in Madden, if he ends up with 86-88 speed.

[illwill10]

Quote: Originally Posted by Claymaker52

You and me both. But by the sounds of it Mark Ingram isn't going to be very usable in Madden, if he ends up with 86-88 speed.

But he will have a high Acceleration. He had a high 10yard split.
He will probably will have 95+ acc.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by sniperhare

They should hide the ratings.

First, let's get the ratings all meaning something (and streamlined). Hiding them won't solve anything.

Plus, there is nothing realistic about having ZERO information about a player's raw physical skills at the absolute minimum not to mention teams at least have their opinion on a guy's technique, etc.

Quote: Originally Posted by sniperhare

This will make it so that you resign players based on production (like they do in the NFL) instead of the player somehow knowing "I'm a 85 OVR player, pay me like that even if I've rode the pine for two years."

OVR should die. Not all ratings. Replace OVR with Production by all means, BUT Production should not be the sole impact. A guy can suck for whatever reason (include not being used). If Andre Johnson went cheap because I didn't use him (for whatever God-forsaken reason!), that would be no more realistic than the scenario you (rightly) deride.

Quote: Originally Posted by sniperhare

Bring back the Head Coach system that has player adjusted ratings based on the offensive or defensive scheme. Have your scouting department find players who would fit your needs or schemes. That would be a great weekly update in franchise.

That would be sweet.

Quote: Originally Posted by sniperhare

You get a message from your GM/Head of scouting that details players in the upcoming draft. You could also "check the news" and watch clips on NFL Network (use the license EA) of upcoming players. But if you only rely on hype it may lead you to drafting the wrong player.

Now you're just dreaming

But I like it.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Now you're just dreaming But I like it.

Well, a major overhaul of the Draft/Scouting system is badly needed if they try to revamp franchise mode.

I just got a complete OLine in a single draft consisting of 5 rookies with starting OVR between 82 and 88, all but one with A potential (the 85 OVR LT is "only" B potential) and I did it with 3 4th and 2 5th round picks, I did scout but I wouldn't even have needed that, it was so painfully obvious from the skill hex that they were monstrous players. That's just wrong, yes sometimes there may be players in the later rounds that develop into beasts, but not like that, and they shouldn't be THAT easy to pick out.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by guaps

As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead.

I really don't think you need tendencies to get basic differences. The ratings just need to come out in the game. A 50 RTE WR should be running choppy routes, maybe even falling down like some of the WR did during the combine today trying to run the 10-yd out. "Controlling your speed and your body" is route running.

Those things just don't translate. You don't need tendencies to make technique differences show in a lot of cases. You just need to make difference in technique skill show up, imo.

To me, tendencies would be more impacting style/decision making in "ambiguous" situations. For example, a defender is about to make a tackle - does he wrap and tackle or does he try for the knockout shot, or does he focus mostly on trying to strip the ball? That, imo, would be something impacted by tendencies - effectiveness by ratings.

For a QB, if he scrambles, does he just try to buy time, using his quickness in the pocket to escape and extend plays and bait defenders into approaching him (letting WR uncover downfield), or does he scramble, see daylight, and take off upfield, maybe bypassing a WR coming free over the top to try to make the play himself?

An RB is about to get contacted - does he try to evade (and how? Juke, spin, cut, quick change in speed, change angle, etc) or does he invite contact and try to break through (and how? stiff arm, lower shoulder, push aside the defender, slight sidestep and then lower shoulder to try for better contact angle, etc)

Things like that would be areas I could see tendencies. That way two scrambling, fast QBs, wouldn't just play like 2 Michael Vicks, etc.

Tendencies like this could be good coaching influences. Let's say you draft a HB who probably should be more of a power runner, but he's trying to juke and cut too much. You could bring in a coach that teaches downhill running and perhaps start to change this kid's tendency towards his strength (what his ratings would dictate) and see his performance improve.

Quote: Originally Posted by sniperhare

While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect.

The problem isn't necessarily the ratings. Having 50 ratings doesn't mean that things like route running or play recognition differences shouldn't show up more consistently and apparently. If Welker and Moss look the same, that's not the fault of having too many ratings, it's that the differences between them in the ratings aren't being expressed (and maybe not being large enough - seems like the scale, effectively, is 80 to 100 unless you really suck at something - not a wide range). You could have 5 ratings and see the same issue.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

Well, a major overhaul of the Draft/Scouting system is badly needed if they try to revamp franchise mode. I just got a complete OLine in a single draft consisting of 5 rookies with starting OVR between 82 and 88, all but one with A potential (the 85 OVR LT is "only" B potential) and I did it with 3 4th and 2 5th round picks, I did scout but I wouldn't even have needed that, it was so painfully obvious from the skill hex that they were monstrous players. That's just wrong, yes sometimes there may be players in the later rounds that develop into beasts, but not like that, and they shouldn't be THAT easy to pick out.

Yeah, the heck should be replaced with a broad kind of thing (Run Block: Average, Footwork: Good, etc) which have very wide ratings (so average might be like 50 or could be 75, but you have no idea until later)

Either that or that hex chart should be VERY inaccurate unless you have the top tier scouting agency and even then it should only be "kinda" accurate.

[carnalnirvana]

some of these aspects are already in the game, if you give a WR agility of 65 he gets open slower and uses less sharp angles that always seem "money"

BUT people would riot if a raw talent like D bryant got a 65 agility & route running to simulate how much he still has to learn to be an elite WR

like someone mentioned the ratings are tied to the marketing of the game, if they tried to displayed anything close to realism of actual abilities you would see alot of 50's 30's 20's in gatecories guys are enjoying 80's now

personally how anyone on the colts can manage a BLOCK SHREDDING rating above 40 is rediculous. have you seen our run D. let our speed and pursuit dictate our success not bracket beating/tossing off pro bowl OL.

the texans CB's all have above 70 man coverage & as well as zone thats crazy too. if i had my way they would have 40's

i dont mind guys getting high ratings for raw talent but the skill technique ratings needs to be 20-100.

in the madden universe a 70 is bad, IMO that cant simulate how special the great guys are especially since 70 and 99 seem to share the same animations.