How can we make speed ATR. less effective?

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Workouts like the combine give us numbers that measure the POTENTIAL for the maximum in drills like the 40. That potential is either reached, or unreached. However, speed is never always utilized 100% by a player on the field. RBs are reading blocks, DBs are reading receivers, and WRs are cutting. However, the 40 time is still useful because it is universal for all players in showing the POTENTIAL for maximum straight-line speed. It is a better measure than anything that cannot be mathematically quantified on the field. There were not any skill positions in that 6.00 range, but that doesn't mean that a range should be applied. Rather, I posit that the range should be for ALL players equally. Therefore, you won't get any linemen being rated the same as a QB who is .5s faster than him. That just wouldn't be logical. The cases for players becoming great with poor combine times is very very rare. Chad Reuter of NFLDS wrote a great article about that years ago. In fact, the slower you run in your 40, the less of a chance you have at making it in the NFL past your rookie season. What does that tell you? It tells you that the times have a positive correlation to performance in the league. The correlation was something around .97 for those stats guys out there...that is almost purely linear. In fact, he even broke it down by round selected. Bottom line is you have to have measurable athletic ability to have a better chance at being a better player in the league. For every Jerry Rice or Emmett Smith who ran sub-par for their position, there are THOUSANDS of players who never got a shot because they simply were not athletic enough to make it. Messing with ranges is flawed logic to me. Rate all the players based on the same range and let it fall as it may.

You definitely have solid info here, and I really appreciate your input. Now I don't clearly understand your closing statement, if you do not mind can you explain to me exactly what you mean?

Thanks in advance.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL

You definitely have solid info here, and I really appreciate your input. Now I don't clearly understand your closing statement, if you do not mind can you explain to me exactly what you mean? Thanks in advance.

What I mean is if you simply apply a speed range to a position (ie: make it based upon the position a player is listed at or plays) then you lose universal measure. For instance, if a player runs a 4.40 as a QB and a WR runs a 4.40 who is faster over that 40 yards? The answer. Nobody; they ran the same distance in the same time, therefore their speed ratings should be equal. They way you would like to do it is by having a RANGE for players based upon their position. So if those same two players (the QB and WR) both run that 4.40 again and apply the range to that time, you will have the QB being rated something like an 85 SPD and the WR a 90 or vice vs. depending on your range.

That is flawed logic to me. Why would you rate speed or any other attribute that can be measured based upon differing ranges? That is how the guys at EA do it now and it doesn't make the gameplay realistic. You are essentially setting the cap for certain positions (like a C who will most likely NEVER run below a 4.70) and setting a bottom for others (like a CB who will most likely NEVER run higher than a 5.40).

Instead, I contend that they should all be rated in SPD based upon the same scale. Now what I mean by letting it fall as it may, I mean that let the SPD ratings fall as they will based upon a universal, non-position specific, range. So if a QB runs a 4.40, rate him a 90 SPD even if it is the same as a WR. If a OT runs a 4.70, the same as a RB with the same time, then rate them both the same. Why should we penalize or boost players because they play a particular position? If you simply rate players universally, you won't get RBs with 40 speeds and OTs with 90 speeds. It won't happen because the likelihood of players at certain positions running those times is small.

This is also what makes some players pure freaks. Do you know what Dwight Freeney ran? A 4.48. That is faster than a lot of WRs in the league. Now if you have DEs scaled down his speed may only be like a 79 instead of the 86 that he most likely deserves. The other drawback is what happens if a player changes positions like Webb of MIN? He was a college QB, then WR, then QB again as a pro. Are you going to keep rating him differently because he changed positions? Come on...get real here. I am sure his changing of positions had NOTHING to do with his speed in real life. Same goes with Sam Shields of GB. Should his ability decrease/increase because he used to be a WR and now plays CB?

Just some food for thought.

[raiders81tim]

Fix some of the fundamental issues in Madden. Pursuit angels, the lack of true route running, mirrored man coverage. Fix some of these issues and speed won't be nearly as effective anymore.

[Playmakers]

DCEBB2001

Has a great point not all players at the skill position should have a 90-99 speed.

A guy like Brock Forsey or William Green are not 90 speed backs they are actually in the mid 70's for speed and part of the reason why they didn't last very long in the NFL. E.Smith wasn't a speed back either but he had great vision which seperates elite backs from avg backs.

A WR with avg speed can still be very effective and appear fast on the field do to route running ability or getting in and out of cuts.

I would hate for EA to make all skill position players have 90 speed, also I think as someone pointed out if they fixed the pursuit angles of the defenders you wouldn't see as many big plays by the faster rated players in Madden.

Everyone has their own ideas as to how the player speed threshold slider works.....IMO i've always felt the lower the threshold the better seperation you get between fast and slow players in Madden

I don't like the idea of making all players fast by increasing the threshold just to stop guys like Chris Johnson or D.Jackson. I prefer a DT with 50 speed to run like a guy with 50 speed not 60 or 70 speed just to close the gap on a speed player

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

What I mean is if you simply apply a speed range to a position (ie: make it based upon the position a player is listed at or plays) then you lose universal measure. For instance, if a player runs a 4.40 as a QB and a WR runs a 4.40 who is faster over that 40 yards? The answer. Nobody; they ran the same distance in the same time, therefore their speed ratings should be equal. They way you would like to do it is by having a RANGE for players based upon their position. So if those same two players (the QB and WR) both run that 4.40 again and apply the range to that time, you will have the QB being rated something like an 85 SPD and the WR a 90 or vice vs. depending on your range. That is flawed logic to me. Why would you rate speed or any other attribute that can be measured based upon differing ranges? That is how the guys at EA do it now and it doesn't make the gameplay realistic. You are essentially setting the cap for certain positions (like a C who will most likely NEVER run below a 4.70) and setting a bottom for others (like a CB who will most likely NEVER run higher than a 5.40). Instead, I contend that they should all be rated in SPD based upon the same scale. Now what I mean by letting it fall as it may, I mean that let the SPD ratings fall as they will based upon a universal, non-position specific, range. So if a QB runs a 4.40, rate him a 90 SPD even if it is the same as a WR. If a OT runs a 4.70, the same as a RB with the same time, then rate them both the same. Why should we penalize or boost players because they play a particular position? If you simply rate players universally, you won't get RBs with 40 speeds and OTs with 90 speeds. It won't happen because the likelihood of players at certain positions running those times is small. This is also what makes some players pure freaks. Do you know what Dwight Freeney ran? A 4.48. That is faster than a lot of WRs in the league. Now if you have DEs scaled down his speed may only be like a 79 instead of the 86 that he most likely deserves. The other drawback is what happens if a player changes positions like Webb of MIN? He was a college QB, then WR, then QB again as a pro. Are you going to keep rating him differently because he changed positions? Come on...get real here. I am sure his changing of positions had NOTHING to do with his speed in real life. Same goes with Sam Shields of GB. Should his ability decrease/increase because he used to be a WR and now plays CB? Just some food for thought.

I totally agree with you 100%, and what you mention here make perfect logical sense. I never understood that logic, but for QB's I know they went that route for the sole reason that gamers where cheesing it up with certain QB's, but that was simply because they put a capped range of speed to the D-lineman and linebackers.

Now if they went with your logic then that would not come into play, so yes what you presented here would be great.

My whole reason for making players speed closer together or close the gap in the speed of all the players , was simply because I want other attributes to play a much more important role. Right now as it is speed is the main dominate attribute, and it should not be.

There are so many fast players in the NFL, and it is their awareness , knowledge, and technique of how they play the game that sets them apart. Not really speed. I would love for this to be evident in the next installment of madden.

The speed range should not be from 70 to 99. That's way to much of a gap. Like you said the NFL only accepts extreme athletes, and that is why all NFL players are fast.

A quick example of why speed is not as important as technique in the NFL. Heyward-Bey is lighting fast, and Steve Smith of the Giants is not , but Steve Smith has much better technique at the WR position then Heyward-Bey, and is why his is a much more successful WR.

This works for all positions. I love your logic and agree with it all the way. I just want to add that the gap in the speed category has to be much smaller, so we can really focus on the real attributes of the players, and not just speed.

Thank you again for your time and input.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

DCEBB2001 Has a great point not all players at the skill position should have a 90-99 speed. A guy like Brock Forsey or William Green are not 90 speed backs they are actually in the mid 70's for speed and part of the reason why they didn't last very long in the NFL. E.Smith wasn't a speed back either but he had great vision which seperates elite backs from avg backs. A WR with avg speed can still be very effective and appear fast on the field do to route running ability or getting in and out of cuts. I would hate for EA to make all skill position players have 90 speed, also I think as someone pointed out if they fixed the pursuit angles of the defenders you wouldn't see as many big plays by the faster rated players in Madden. Everyone has their own ideas as to how the player speed threshold slider works.....IMO i've always felt the lower the threshold the better seperation you get between fast and slow players in Madden I don't like the idea of making all players fast by increasing the threshold just to stop guys like Chris Johnson or D.Jackson. I prefer a DT with 50 speed to run like a guy with 50 speed not 60 or 70 speed just to close the gap on a speed player

That's the thing I do not feel that any player in the NFL is a 50 or 60 speed, and ratings in the method only lead to speed being the most important attribute to the game, and totally making the other attributes not a big deal.

How about making it where you take the 40 time of 4.2 being 99 speed then work your way from there to say then 4.4 is 98, and so and and so fourth. Then we can see how that falls to play, but it is very important not to discriminate by position. I think when it all said and done. That no player will be 50 or 60 speed.

Like it was mentioned earlier Freeney ran a 4.48. Which timed faster than some WR's. Don't we want that in our game? I think we do, but its not only his speed. There are many fast DE's, but it is his special technique that he has that makes him very difficult to block as a pass rusher. Again to me its more about technique than speed.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL

I totally agree with you 100%, and what you mention here make perfect logical sense. I never understood that logic, but for QB's I know they went that route for the sole reason that gamers where cheesing it up with certain QB's, but that was simply because they put a capped range of speed to the D-lineman and linebackers. Now if they went with your logic then that would not come into play, so yes what you presented here would be great. My whole reason for making players speed closer together or close the gap in the speed of all the players , was simply because I want other attributes to play a much more important role. Right now as it is speed is the main dominate attribute, and it should not be. There are so many fast players in the NFL, and it is their awareness , knowledge, and technique of how they play the game that sets them apart. Not really speed. I would love for this to be evident in the next installment of madden. The speed range should not be from 70 to 99. That's way to much of a gap. Like you said the NFL only accepts extreme athletes, and that is why all NFL players are fast. A quick example of why speed is not as important as technique in the NFL. Heyward-Bey is lighting fast, and Steve Smith of the Giants is not , but Steve Smith has much better technique at the WR position then Heyward-Bey, and is why his is a much more successful WR. This works for all positions. I love your logic and agree with it all the way. I just want to add that the gap in the speed category has to be much smaller, so we can really focus on the real attributes of the players, and not just speed. Thank you again for your time and input.

They may all be great athletes, but the way speed works in the game signifies small differences between a 90 and 99 in speed when acceleration is constant. That means because of the game engine provided, we HAVE to have a wider range. For example, with my system at FBG I simply tested the in-game speeds of players vs. one another while using a constant acceleration to identify the gaps and differences. Then, I used the speed threshold setting to close or widen the gap to mimic the speed range we have in real life. The result? It works great! I can have a guy who runs a 4.21 like Trindon Holliday with 99 SPD run that in the game over the course of 40 yards and a guy like B.J. Raji run a 5.12 over the course of 40 yards with 58 SPD and have them both match up. The ratings spread I use is in unison with the speed threshold slider which seems to realistically mimic real-life speed in the game.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL

That's the thing I do not feel that any player in the NFL is a 50 or 60 speed, and ratings in the method only lead to speed being the most important attribute to the game, and totally making the other attributes not a big deal. How about making it where you take the 40 time of 4.2 being 99 speed then work your way from there to say then 4.4 is 98, and so and and so fourth. Then we can see how that falls to play, but it is very important not to discriminate by position. I think when it all said and done. That no player will be 50 or 60 speed. Like it was mentioned earlier Freeney ran a 4.48. Which timed faster than some WR's. Don't we want that in our game? I think we do, but its not only his speed. There are many fast DE's, but it is his special technique that he has that makes him very difficult to block as a pass rusher. Again to me its more about technique than speed.

See and we can have that technique evident in the game WITH speed. It's the combination. By closing the gap in speed, you are doing the opposite of what you want to do. You are, in fact, making it just as important because now everyone has similar speed. So what you have now done is devalued SPD. Why can't we just keep everything valued equally? Don't devalue ANY attribute and make them equally important when they work together.

We also know that the effects of other attributes are weighted differently...and believe it or not, speed is NOT always the most important factor. Know what it is for a WR in Madden? CTH, RTE, then SPD. SPD is the 3rd most important factor! For a CB is MCV, ZCV, then SPD...3rd again. So as it stands, speed isn't even the most important factor in acquiring an OVR rating.