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Regarding CATCHING THE BALL - Not only do people expect EA to make the game, they want EA to play it for them too. In the NFL, every catch is a USER CATCH. Rocket Catch and Jetpack are just stupid replacements for real football terms. In Madden guys who user catch will have an advantage over the guys that don't.
Now I know that many people might say, "I shouldn't have to ________!"
But if you were coaching a real team and your players told you "Coach, I shouldn't have to _________," imagine what you'd do if your players pulled a Haynesworth.
When I see people complain about folks that spectacular user catch, I wonder which defenses they run, how often they adjust to the threats they face, and how smart they are as a football fan. There always seems to be a failure on one of those fronts...
When you use words like glitches, flaws, arcade, exploits, bad AI, etc... It makes this discussion impossible to carry forward.
Please tell me you aren't blaming the unwillingness to user catch/defend on the animations.
The myths you've heard about NOT being able to stop a spectacular catch with AI coverage have been boldly exaggerated. Having hosted tournaments beginning with the year the SPC rating was added - I can tell you that there were several coverages that defended spectacular catch receivers against the most deadly route of the game on '08.
I remember my 2nd event, in the Final 4, there was one player that couldn't stop receiver's from undercutting hook routes and leaping to catch them. Meanwhile the other 3 had no problem defending it. Oddly, these tourney players were defending with CPU defenders on the SAME GAME that I read countless reports of how the CPU couldn't defend it.
In fact, one of the top ranked players in the world that season got beat in the 1st round by an 'unknown' because the new guy was stopping his spectacular catches.
So when I hear people say the AI can't do this or that, I laugh. I know it's not the AI that is at fault. They just don't know something. They might THINK they know, though.
Not having Tiered play calling is NOT a strategic weakness of players... But calling defenses using a tiered philosophy is daft when playing a game that doesn't use a tiered system. That's the same as ordering a Whopper at McDonald's - no matter how long you yell at the cashier and manager - your burger isn't going to be a Whopper.
If you want to call plays like APF, 2K, Gameday, FB Pro, etc... You should be playing those games. If you're playing Madden, you shouldn't be trying to call plays like you're playing APF, 2K, Gameday, FB Pro, etc.
Futhermore, you can play gap control defense on Madden. I do it. For every defense I run I know exactly which gap every rusher is attempting to fill. Ever cover assignment, every minute detail - EVERY PLAY.
How many Madden players can say they know EVERY ASSIGNMENT on EVERY PLAY in their defensive playbooks?
I thought we'd been over this, several times, throughout the course of my OS membership. I'll say this again, for the record... I claim no knowledge of anything except football, Madden, and how to adapt real football strategies to the MADDEN GAME.
There's the subject of what's possible in the football gaming genre... Feel free to discuss it all you want. I'm sure several players will offer their opinions. But if you look around, I'm not posting in the APF forum. NEVER HAVE.
I post in the Madden forum because I play Madden as my football gaming choice. If a particular play call system exists in another game, but it's not relevant to Madden - I have NO INTEREST IN DISCUSSING IT.
As far as I'm concerned, anything that isn't relative to Madden is just smoke and mirrors that will not help me play MADDEN better.
So, I'll say again... MADDEN, MADDEN, MADDEN, MADDEN, MADDEN (madden). Please, don't waste your keyboard strokes bringing up another football game. It irks me that I have to tell intelligent people this more than once. Feel free to hold my lack of interest in other football games against me, but my interest isn't going to change.
Once again, you drop the 'glitch' word. Let's call tactics by name please... Using euphemisms for glitch makes it seem as if folks aren't able to describe them with football words. IMO, that's irresponsible of knowledgeable football and/or gaming fans.
I'll agree that Hot routing my defense to a scheme I would have called in the huddle is a 'workaround' if you agree that providing users the tools to create a workaround means the devs INTENDED for us to create 'workarounds.'
The way I see it, I have 250 defenses in my playbook but I wish I had 1,000. By providing the tools for me to create the 750 defenses I want in my playbook, I don't see it as a workaround - it's a necessity. I see it as a window for me to create exactly the defense I want - EVERYTIME. Is there a better way to do it? Maybe. But until that better way is relevant to Madden - it's not worth discussing, IMO.
I went back and played Madden '04 about a month ago. It used to be my favorite Madden, but now it's unplayable. Why? No workarounds on defense.
I've played Madden for almost as long as you. Been watching football probably as long as most people here (about 30+ years). I knew the rules, how to read a play diagram, the basics about matching offensive and defensive alignments, etc... By all accounts, I was a pretty knowledgeable player.
Then Madden went online and I found my recognition skills, user skills, and adjustment skills lacking. For 13 of my 20 years playing Madden, I'd been fooling myself into thinking I was a good football tactician... I wasn't. But I was determined to be.
I hit the books, starting with formations. I learned the strengths and weaknesses of each offensive and defensive formation in Madden. I then expanded that to include formations that weren't in Madden.
Then I worked on my defensive user skills by learning every position's role in every formation and play that I use. I worked on being able to execute those assignments manually WHILE adjusting plays to ensure AI defenders played their assignments the way I wanted...
Ignorance is bliss. I was more confused about football games when I played all of them. Never enjoyed any football game more than when I started to focus on just one.
At least you admit that you don't enjoy Madden because it doesn't use a method you feel works better in another game. I can respect that more than the "It's not realistic" antics I usually see thrown in with logical discussion. Fact is, none of it is realistic..
The Defensive coordinator isn't sitting in the booth with a flip book where he mixes and matches coverages... He has a clipboard and a headset. Maybe the Madden franchise will one day move to a voice recognition play call system. Maybe another game will do it first. But until then, none of the play call systems will be 'realistic' or 'SIM.'
Until Madden uses a different play call system, I'll call plays using whatever system it has. That doesn't mean it can't improve, but as a player of the current game, all I can do right now is call plays the Madden way.
ThinkingOutLoud,
Other than the NFL Blitz analogy, you made some good points. Other than being football games, I'm not aware that Blitz and Madden are anything alike. I'd prefer to keep the discussion on Madden and strategy. Like always, I'm going to bend this back around to strategic player weaknesses.
You referred to the risk/reward system in the NFL... I agree, to an extent it's not reflected in Madden. Part of that is the environment of 1v1 play.
If Player A is a horrible Madden player, he can still play the role as coach, player, and coordinator in as many games as he physically has time to play. If Madden were like real life, most Madden players would get FIRED and NEVER be allowed to play again. Fortunately for Madden fans, many of the worst players fire themselves early in he season, trade the game, and play something else all year.
By that same token, players that make stupid football decisions like going for it on 4th and 20 inside their own 10 face the same consequences as the guy that doesn't know his * from his < (that 2nd one is an elbow...lol). NOTHING. After the game they get a win or a loss, but never face the consequences that come with accumulating either. Therefore, the risk/reward aspect of Madden must be judged within the scope of a single game...
Throughout this I've never implied that anyone is devoid of football knowledge. When I say 'lacking knowledge,' it doesn't mean they are a football buffoon (doesn't mean they are not either).
I know many Madden players who play at a HIGH LEVEL, who will candidly discuss where their knowledge is not as strong as other areas. Take me for example, my strengths are the short passing game on offense, and playing detective on defense...
I'll use this examle because it's near and dear to guys that play Madden (even if they don't like the game). Before Madden '03 I had little knowledge of pass protections. I LACKED FOOTBALL KNOWLEDGE, so it was logical that any football strategy I didn't know was IMPOSSIBLE to implement in the Madden game. Being a solution guy, I set out to learn about pass protection.
As I learned I added one piece at a time and had more success against blitzes. The more I learned about real football, the more I could use real football in my Madden game. Now, years later, I can beat practically any blitz opponents throw at me. As a result, I'm aware of areas that I lack knowledge and I seek it from the only source I really trust - REAL LIFE STRATEGY.
It takes a little effort to figure out which of the myriad of Madden commands will produce the execution we want, but that is why Madden is special... The game is simple to learn, but tough to master. Winning means something on Madden because of the effort it takes to skills required to play it well, not in spite of them.
There are some tangential issues you mentioned that I'm not sure I understand - but I'll speak on the NFL/XFL. If you put 22 NFL caliber athletes on a 120 yard field, with a ball, NFL rules, and some practice you can get NFL caliber football.
Let's face it... XFL players weren't NFL caliber, nor did anyone expect them to be. It started as a side-show. The entire league was based on antics using players who weren't really talented. Only one of them was good enough to make the league - and even he rode the pine.
Later
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04-21-2011, 05:51 PM
