Problems and Solutions

[Jarodd21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

I'm with Jarodd, I see both sides of the argument. In case anyone's wondering, the impetus for this thread came from this one on stopping the HB angle/flat route: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...at-routes.html I think there are a good many who see something going on with the game and chalk it up to faulty AI or a broken this or that, when the truth is, maybe we don't have a full understanding of how everything work strategically. Man coverage is one I see a lot. Everyone complains about how the middle is wide open in two man under -- well that's kinda how it's designed. The corners play outside leverage. If you want to better guard the middle of the field, you should be calling a Cover 1 where the corners play more to the inside. I was in the camp of "man coverage is broken" until I had my eyes opened up in the Palo's http://www.operationsports.com/forum...dd-madden.html thread by shttymcgee and Sven. I didn't have full understanding of what each coverage was designed to do. On the flipside, I can't jive with everything TNT is saying, because you can't apply every stragetic football nuance to Madden. I should be able to play my best pass rusher as a RE and my strongest end at LE. Can't do that in Madden. My best pass rusher will disappear at RE. If I've got a good running game going, then the secondary should at least pause when I play-fake. Not in Madden. Both sides should find a middle ground. The problems in Madden can't be just glossed over and put on the user as not having the requisite knowledge. But on the flipside, just because you're having a problem with a particular aspect of the game doesn't mean something is broken. The kneejerk "EA needs to fix this" is probably what led to the unbalanced "out of the box" gameplay that was pre-patch Madden 11, and definitely led to NCAA 11 being neutered from what was a wonderfully realistic and challenging game. And p.s. no, the HB Angle route is not impossible to stop.

Great Post Senator..

[GiantBlue76]

I find it ironic that this post comes from a guy who has never even tried another football game because he feels Madden is the best it gets. Sorry, but I see very little merit in the initial post.

The one thing I do agree with is that in a sim environment, I do see people misinterpret a football strategy with a corny strategy because they can't stop it. In my mind, I have a bigger problem with things that are a part of football that are just flat out absent from the game. It's been discussed way too much already so we don't need to re-hash.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by LiquorLogic

It's not the consumer's job to find solutions.

Actually... it is. The developer's job is to provide tools so consumer's can apply those tools in concert with their football knowledge to create their own tactical solutions to tactical problems.

EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade.

Indeed, it seems silly to think that problem minded players would bother using newer updated tools to solve their tactical problems when they aren't using the ones that have been around since Madden 99.

Is it EA's fault some people don't know where to go with the ball against a Cover 4? Is it EA's fault some people have trouble running against a 3-4 front?

Don't get me wrong, I can be as critical as anyone about the Madden product - and still play it religiously. I cannot, however assign EA the player's responsibility. Personally, I'm more critical of players than I am of EA because I've seen the tool chest expand in recent years. I've also seen a marked improvement in my ability to use of the tools EA has provided to simulate some good football against all types of player antics...

But I study football so I'll know what to do when I play Madden. As a student of NFL football strategies - I find ways to adapt those real world concepts to the Madden world all the time. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well. I also think Madden is worth playing. Maybe that's the difference...

Later

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I find it ironic that this post comes from a guy who has never even tried another football game because he feels Madden is the best it gets.

Taz,

I have played several other football games on various platforms... Just none recently. I came to the conclusion around 2000 or so that Madden was the best game because of how I feel when I play it.

For me, no game Earth matches the feeling I get from playing Madden well, nor the depths of playing it poorly. I actually care if I win or lose a Madden game.

So when I hated playing Madden because of QB Vision, I didn't just stop playing Madden. I didn't play ANY video games at all.

Nothing against video games, football or otherwise - I just don't care enough about them to play. Before Madden went online I'd literally buy games but never play them - because I didn't care enough to put the disk on the tray and press a button.

I have had dreams about playing Madden. Nothing against other football games, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to dream about them. So I play Madden.

That said, I'm a fan of sharing any lessons I've learned that will help someone else enjoy playing Madden. The technique and tactical solutions are out there.

Later

[RGiles36]

I haven't read this thread thorougly, but as I've said, it's good to see somebody who truly enjoys Madden. I don't always agree with TNT, but he sticks to his guns and unapologetically loves Madden. It's good to read that instead of how far the game is behind all of the time.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by CHooe

Out of curiosity, TNT713, do you primarily play with a 4-3 or 3-4 defense?

I primarily play with the Panthers in a 4-3 defense.

But I have the Cardinals in a league so I have to use a 3-4 with them. They are HORRIBLE in the 4-3 alignment.

Later

[LiquorLogic]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Actually... it is. The developer's job is to provide tools so consumer's can apply those tools in concert with their football knowledge to create their own tactical solutions to tactical problems. EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade. Indeed, it seems silly to think that problem minded players would bother using newer updated tools to solve their tactical problems when they aren't using the ones that have been around since Madden 99. Is it EA's fault some people don't know where to go with the ball against a Cover 4? Is it EA's fault some people have trouble running against a 3-4 front? Don't get me wrong, I can be as critical as anyone about the Madden product - and still play it religiously. I cannot, however assign EA the player's responsibility. Personally, I'm more critical of players than I am of EA because I've seen the tool chest expand in recent years. I've also seen a marked improvement in my ability to use of the tools EA has provided to simulate some good football against all types of player antics... But I study football so I'll know what to do when I play Madden. As a student of NFL football strategies - I find ways to adapt those real world concepts to the Madden world all the time. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well. I also think Madden is worth playing. Maybe that's the difference... Later

Umm...no it's not. It's not our responsibility to make the AI play the way it's supposed to play, and the tools that we've been given, up to this point, are questionable at best.

This has nothing to do with football strategy. Many of Madden's problems start with AI, and the defense not playing coverages properly, or the offensive line making ridiculous decisions.

The fundamentals have been done correctly, just not in Madden, and what are we, the consumers, supposed to about the impact ( or lack there of) of weight on the game ? What about the ratings, and the fact that, other than speed, they're virtually meaningless ?

I realize that there are a lot of people that complain that certain routes are open all the time without the knowing what coverages work best against those routes, but that doesn't mean that EA should change the game to suit those players. A simple tutorial, which would take less work, than tuning a certain coverage to play unrealistically to suit uninformed gamers.

There are no solutions, that gamers can create, for the core problems in the game. If there were, with all the sliders sets out there, don't you think all of those problems would've been solved by now ?

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade.

How has EA steadily been improving the tools, when we have less than we did over half a decade ago. Come on man! It wasn't until Madden 10 that we got back individual defensive assignments. Madden 08 had weapons; one of which was the shutdown corner. The problem was that, at that time, we didn't have individual defensive assignments. Now how asinine is that ? You have a shut down corner, but you can't match him up against your opponent's best WR ? We used to be able to shade wrs in or out, use man-lock to disguise coverages, and individually bump one receiver and play off the other one. We can't do any of that now, and why in the world can't we have formation substitutions in the pause menu ?

Just look at gameflow which was M11's greatest feature ? Defensively, Gameflow didn't account for down and distance. How on earth can you properly formulate a defensive gameplan without considering down and distance ?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

I haven't read this thread thorougly, but as I've said, it's good to see somebody who truly enjoys Madden. I don't always agree with TNT, but he sticks to his guns and unapologetically loves Madden. It's good to read that instead of how far the game is behind all of the time.

I dig that folks enjoy Madden, but I hate that they don't see the same faults I do. My problems with the game put me in the minority, so these problems are not a priority.