Will Ratings Matter for Offensive Line Play?

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by Franchise408

Well, when playing against the AI, when it doesn't matter what team I am using, my play style always has to end up being the same because no matter what a players rating is, certain plays simply aren't possible, I have a hard time accepting that player ratings play any sort of significant role in this game.

Okay, I have just played another game. In the 4th quarter, I subbed in my rookie QB with a 68 OVR, compared to my 90 OVR normal QB. There's a reason I went 10/13 with my regular QB and 1/5 and a pick with my backup, and that is his poor Throwing Accuracy ratings. Yes, with the QB Acc slider way up at 25 it doesn't matter that much, but put it down to 6-8 and you WILL notice a HUGE difference between throwing with Peyton Manning or with John Skelton. Ever tried throwing it on the run with Acc down like that? Believe me, without an Throwing on the Run rating of 90+ you will have a hard time completing ANY throw on the run. Another rating that definitely matters.

In my running game, I got one stud RB with Speed 99 (I don't think we have to start a discussion here whether Speed and Acceleration matter, do we?) and Trucking 95 compared to my backup RB with Trucking 65. My feature back managed to fall forward after being gang tackled or even stumble forward after being tackled almost every time, while my backup when he spelled him didn't manage to do it ONCE in 10 attempts on his part. On the other hand, my backup RB has an Elusiveness rating of 95, and he did indeed manage to "slide off" a couple of tacklers. More ratings that matter.

I even went so far a threw almost an identical pass two times, a slant coming in from the right against a Cover 3 defense, which means that with Pass Reaction up at 100, you get only a very, very tiny spot between the Hook and the Flat where you can put the ball, and your receiver will get hit by the LB in the hook immediately after the catch. The first throw went to Larry Fitzgerald who, due to 99 Catch and 95 Catch in Traffic was able to make the catch and hang on, while the other time, my rookie slot receiver didn't even make the catch because he only his 79 CIT. The catch ratings DO matter, without the shadow of a doubt.

I could go on like this for ages, honestly, even for only a single game.

Please note, I DO not claim that ratings matter in this game like they should. They do not. I do NOT like how many ratings are implemented in the game, and I honestly hate how the CPU works on All-Madden. Oline ratings matter some but by far not enough and since the differences seem to be very small, it isn't really obvious (still, run a season behind the Cardinals line and you will notice that you get a lot less production out of the same back than you would behind a 90+ Oline), Dline seems to hardly matter at all at least on All-Madden. There's a lot of randomness involved, especially on the CPU side of things, and yes, even your corners with 99 MCV will blow up a coverage more often than they should, and your LB with Tackle 99 will miss more tackles than he should. But that doesn't change the fact that they will fail a lot less often than guys on their position with worse ratings, and that means ratings DO matter. To claim that they don't is simply wrong.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by Poptart23

according to this video, ratings dont matter

No. According to this video, a handful of ratings don't matter in a very specific (so specific it's close to useless, in my opinion) situation.

If you really think "ratings don't matter" are you really trying to tell me Devin Hester isn't faster in the game than on Olineman? Because if he is, than hey, we have a rating here that does seem to matter.

[Tweeg]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

Funny thing for something to happen "consistently" that it never even once happened to me in over 15 seasons now. I don't buy it, for this to happen, they'd have to move through their whole depth chart for every lineman, every TE, every FB, every WR/HB (because they have at least SOME blocking skills), every defensive linemen (because even they will have better blocking ratings than your average punter) before they actually put in some 12 OVR punter without any kind of blocking.

It happens to me all the time. CPU gets a few linemen injured, the starter (which is now ranked like 61 and doing a fine job) gets tired, and finally the punter comes in to play right guard.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Franchise408

The problem with that line of thinking is that any slider setting that is anything remotely less than "All-Madden" is too easy for me, and I absolutely steam roll any CPU opponent no matter what team I am using. Alex Smith puts Montana, Brady, and Manning to shame with his #'s. Frank Gore is constantly winning rushing titles. And that San Francisco defense? '85 Bears who? I have tried countless different slider sets, both of my own and also ones that are posted in the slider difficulty, and none of them give me a realistic gameplay experience. The only thing that offers me a "challenge" is All-Madden mode, which throws player ratings out the window and just makes the CPU cheat in an attempt to replicate a "challenge". And that's my problem with Madden, my horrible experiences with CPU AI that make player ratings completely meaningless, because one on difficulty the CPU is either going to cheat and win, or on the other difficulty, I am going to destroy the best NFL teams with sub par talent because the AI isn't good enough to hang with me. I've played plenty of sports games, on previous generation consoles and current gen, that have been able to successfully find a balance in giving me a challenge while making player ratings matter. EA has failed at this, in my experiences, with Madden. Not since EA got the exclusive license and I've had to play Madden to have a football game, have I ever been able to find an installment of Madden that successfully gives me the gameplay experience I am looking for.

One post, you say your OL can't block and Frank Gore only averages 2-3 ypc. Another post you say no matter what, you lead the league in rushing with Gore. Which one is it?

[KOTC Wayne]

O-line play definitely matters. I can tell a huge difference in the running game when using the Giants compared to the Patriots. Now, they don't matter like they should but its definitely a difference.

[Franchise408]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

One post, you say your OL can't block and Frank Gore only averages 2-3 ypc. Another post you say no matter what, you lead the league in rushing with Gore. Which one is it?

you're not reading closely enough.

If I am not playing on all madden, it does not matter what my players are rated, I will absolutely steam roll opposing teams, no matter what team they are, or what team I am using.

If I am playing on all madden, it does not matter what my players are rated because the game is going to do what the difficulty setting dictate it do. That typically results in my 90+ block rated offensive linemen being nothing more than traffic cones as they get manhandled by any and every defensive lineman stuffing gore for 2 yards a carry.

Which is it? Im saying my on field results are 100% dependant upon difficulty sliders, player ratings has not mattered for me in my experiences with madden.

[Franchise408]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

Okay, I have just played another game. In the 4th quarter, I subbed in my rookie QB with a 68 OVR, compared to my 90 OVR normal QB. There's a reason I went 10/13 with my regular QB and 1/5 and a pick with my backup, and that is his poor Throwing Accuracy ratings. Yes, with the QB Acc slider way up at 25 it doesn't matter that much, but put it down to 6-8 and you WILL notice a HUGE difference between throwing with Peyton Manning or with John Skelton. Ever tried throwing it on the run with Acc down like that? Believe me, without an Throwing on the Run rating of 90+ you will have a hard time completing ANY throw on the run. Another rating that definitely matters. In my running game, I got one stud RB with Speed 99 (I don't think we have to start a discussion here whether Speed and Acceleration matter, do we?) and Trucking 95 compared to my backup RB with Trucking 65. My feature back managed to fall forward after being gang tackled or even stumble forward after being tackled almost every time, while my backup when he spelled him didn't manage to do it ONCE in 10 attempts on his part. On the other hand, my backup RB has an Elusiveness rating of 95, and he did indeed manage to "slide off" a couple of tacklers. More ratings that matter. I even went so far a threw almost an identical pass two times, a slant coming in from the right against a Cover 3 defense, which means that with Pass Reaction up at 100, you get only a very, very tiny spot between the Hook and the Flat where you can put the ball, and your receiver will get hit by the LB in the hook immediately after the catch. The first throw went to Larry Fitzgerald who, due to 99 Catch and 95 Catch in Traffic was able to make the catch and hang on, while the other time, my rookie slot receiver didn't even make the catch because he only his 79 CIT. The catch ratings DO matter, without the shadow of a doubt. I could go on like this for ages, honestly, even for only a single game. Please note, I DO not claim that ratings matter in this game like they should. They do not. I do NOT like how many ratings are implemented in the game, and I honestly hate how the CPU works on All-Madden. Oline ratings matter some but by far not enough and since the differences seem to be very small, it isn't really obvious (still, run a season behind the Cardinals line and you will notice that you get a lot less production out of the same back than you would behind a 90+ Oline), Dline seems to hardly matter at all at least on All-Madden. There's a lot of randomness involved, especially on the CPU side of things, and yes, even your corners with 99 MCV will blow up a coverage more often than they should, and your LB with Tackle 99 will miss more tackles than he should. But that doesn't change the fact that they will fail a lot less often than guys on their position with worse ratings, and that means ratings DO matter. To claim that they don't is simply wrong.

I can make plenty of claims of my own that contradict your results.

In season 2 or 3 of my franchise mode in madden 11, I developed Michael Crabtree to a 90+ ovr WR with 99 catch. He led the league in drops by the end of that season. I utilized Crabtree mostly from the slot where he was running drag routes and slants. I was not sending him deep into traffic. Throwing him wide open drag routes 3 yards upfield with no defenders around him for yards (so he's not getting blown up on tye catch, something I wouldn't complain about). He's dropping these passes regularly.

Or Ted ginn, 97 spd I believe, lined up 1v1 with a lower speed CB. No safety help. No bump. But never breaks free on a streak route, because he cant run a straight line faster than the ai (and im not talking about raiders db's who are 95+ spd).

I cant tell you how many times an opposing QB goes out with injury and I think "surely this 60 something rated backup with no throw ratings out of the 70's will not be as good as the starter" and the QB proceeds to light me up for 300 yards in a half.

Or how many times I've watched Patrick Willis get trucked by scatbacks. Not guys like Brandon Jacobs, or marshawn lynch, or Michael turner or some other big bruising back. But smaller quicker guys.

Trust me I've gone out and gotten the high rated qbs with big time throw ratings. I think one time I drafted a QB who came out 85 ovr with accuracy ratings in the 90's and I still couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. If his accuracy wasnt in the 90's it was at worst mid 80's.

The biggest example I have seen of ratings mattering is that top rated CPU players (90's) will play unrealistically good (ie Adrian Peterson is untacklable) and really low rated human players play unrealistically bad (ie I signed Michael Vick as a backup before the roster update that made him good. He had low accuracy ratings, and in game wouldn't even throw to the correct side of the field. I'd try to throw to receivers on the right side, and he'd throw to the left side of the field, or vice versa).

So my experiences of ratings mattering have still been unrealistic extremes.

[over9000yards]

Since you guys are arguing over where O-line play makes a difference on Madden '11, I did a little test to see whether it's true or not. I didn't record anything, so just take my word for it.

I used the Create-a-team feature in Madden '11 and made an All-Pro team, almost everyone above 90, except for 5 O-lineman who were moved from Punter/Kicker, who are each 12 OVR. The RBs are Arian Foster, CJ, and AP. The D-line is Julius Peppers, Haloti Nagata, Kevin Williams, and Richard Seymour. The play I had the defense running was a 4-3 Cover 1.

Playing in practice mode on All-Madden, I can't tell a difference between the play of the O-line made up of P/K's and the O-line made up of All-Pro players.

The running game is bad no matter what O-line I use. The defense is in my backfield almost every play. The only run plays that work often seem to be iso plays with a FB blocking, because the FB can get a block on a d-lineman that's in your backfield and let you get past the LOS. Sweeps did not work at any point. Some runs toward the outside will work, if there is a FB blocking. (Not sweeps though)

Longest run I had was a 15-17 yarder by any of the RBs. I didn't score any TD's, but that's probably due more to the fact that the entire d was over 90+ OVR, not due to the D-line. I could get consistent 4-5 yard gains and some 10 yard gains, but it was in spite of the o-line play, not because of it. The only reason I was getting the gains was because of some good blocks by the FB on d-linemen who had come free into the backfield. Whenever the FB missed a block, I either lost yardage or didn't gain anything.

Pass blocking was decent, good enough to get some quick passes off. I played Defense and had the Offense run shotgun plays with Slant routes and couldn't get much heat on the QB, even with blitzing. I could hit the QB every time, but not before he completed a pass. I did force an INT and an incompletion or two. Coverage got burned even though I had the best defense possible (Reed and Polamlu, Revis and Asomouga, etc.)

After testing it out, I think the only thing that matters is D-line ratings. And even then the d-line ratings don't matter all that much, due to the fact that every o-lineman plays the same way. If you don't believe me, you can test out what I did for yourself.

I really hope they improve things O-line and D-line wise on Madden '12. It kinda sounds like they improved the d-line quite a bit, but I haven't heard anything about the o-line being improved.