Who is Clutch?

[carnalnirvana]

if clutch existed, it would not be in team sports especially football. there are too many people involved in a play for one person to be considered a more pressure performer.

vineteri on those raider kicks, awesome, but what about the snapper, holder... brady on those drives, how about troy brown, patten, givens


anyway in sports like tennis/golf maybe you can improve your performance but if the line does not block there is no brady, manning Ben heroics, also

in basketball clutch is overrated, they miss more last second shots than they make, also superstar players attempt more of those shots than people who are better shooters. i wonder if steve kerr attempted 100 last second threes if he would make as many as jordan made 2's....hmmmm

[brza37]

Here's my shot at the 30 players that will have the clutch trait at release of M12:

The Elite 11 (No explanations necessary)
- Tom Brady
- Peyton Manning
- Aaron Rodgers
- Ben Roethlisberger
- Santonio Holmes
- Adam Vinatieri
- Troy Palomolu
- Ed Reed
- Larry Fitzgerald
- Drew Brees
- Ray Lewis

Second Tier (Next 11)
- James Harrison (Super Bowl XLII)
- Darelle Revis (He shuts down all the time, including in the clutch)
- Antonio Gates (Chargers' go to guy)
- Greg Jennings (Finally earned his long due recognition nationally during super bowl run)
- Charles Woodson (Long career with a lot of big plays)
- Clay Matthews (riding the success of a huge 2010 campaign)
- Matt Bryant (Still hurting Eagles fans with his 62-yard game winner in 2006. Has had many since then)
- Rob Bironas (Probably the most underrated game winning kicker)
- Robbie Gould (bunch of game winners in horrible Windy City conditions)
- Dallas Clark (Peyton's go to guy)
- Hines Ward (Big Ben's go to guy)
- Matt Ryan (He has a bunch of regular season 4th quarter comebacks and a cool nickname already in his young career but until he pulls one off in the playoffs I'll doubt him)

On the Bubble (14 players on the bubble to fill out 7 spots)
- Philip Rivers (see above, playoffs are where clutch QBs are made)
- Mark Sanchez (is it really him or his stellar defense?)
- Josh Freeman (sample size is too small and gotta do it in the playoffs but I think EA may give him the nod)
- Asante Samuel (Gets ragged on for his awful tackling but has made a ton of picks over his career and a few on big stages, playoffs, MNF etc.)
- Tramon Williams (Huge playoff run last year but probably too small of a sample size. Is the one season enough to get him a Clutch rating in EA's eyes?)
- Darren Sharper (Is he the same player that he was two years ago?)
- Rashard Mendenhall (List just didn't feel right without one RB, but its hard to justify anyone)
- Marshawn Lynch (Does one huge run in one career playoff game justify a clutch rating? I doubt it but I mean he did cause an earthquake...)
- Roddy White
- Maurice Jones Drew (oh yeah, playoffs. forget it, just grabbing at straws with RBs to get to 30 here)
- David Akers (Once had a streak of 19 straight postseason FGs but not as reliable lately and most likely on his way out in Philly)
- Jeff Reed (One of the top clutch kickers until 2010)
- Desean Jackson (A really clutch Returner, New Miracle at the Meadowlands being the most recent, but not so clutch at WR)
- Devin Hester (Another clutch returner but not clutch WR. If they could only turn on the trait during returns it would work but making him clutch as a receiver too would just be wrong)

Feel free to tear my list apart

[at23steelers]

Quote: Originally Posted by brza37

Here's my shot at the 30 players that will have the clutch trait at release of M12: The Elite 11 (No explanations necessary) - Tom Brady - Peyton Manning - Aaron Rodgers - Ben Roethlisberger - Santonio Holmes - Adam Vinatieri - Troy Palomolu - Ed Reed - Larry Fitzgerald - Drew Brees - Ray Lewis Second Tier (Next 11) - James Harrison (Super Bowl XLII) - Darelle Revis (He shuts down all the time, including in the clutch) - Antonio Gates (Chargers' go to guy) - Greg Jennings (Finally earned his long due recognition nationally during super bowl run) - Charles Woodson (Long career with a lot of big plays) - Clay Matthews (riding the success of a huge 2010 campaign) - Matt Bryant (Still hurting Eagles fans with his 62-yard game winner in 2006. Has had many since then) - Rob Bironas (Probably the most underrated game winning kicker) - Robbie Gould (bunch of game winners in horrible Windy City conditions) - Dallas Clark (Peyton's go to guy) - Hines Ward (Big Ben's go to guy) - Matt Ryan (He has a bunch of regular season 4th quarter comebacks and a cool nickname already in his young career but until he pulls one off in the playoffs I'll doubt him) On the Bubble (14 players on the bubble to fill out 7 spots) - Philip Rivers (see above, playoffs are where clutch QBs are made) - Mark Sanchez (is it really him or his stellar defense?) - Josh Freeman (sample size is too small and gotta do it in the playoffs but I think EA may give him the nod) - Asante Samuel (Gets ragged on for his awful tackling but has made a ton of picks over his career and a few on big stages, playoffs, MNF etc.) - Tramon Williams (Huge playoff run last year but probably too small of a sample size. Is the one season enough to get him a Clutch rating in EA's eyes?) - Darren Sharper (Is he the same player that he was two years ago?) - Rashard Mendenhall (List just didn't feel right without one RB, but its hard to justify anyone) - Marshawn Lynch (Does one huge run in one career playoff game justify a clutch rating? I doubt it but I mean he did cause an earthquake...) - Roddy White - Maurice Jones Drew (oh yeah, playoffs. forget it, just grabbing at straws with RBs to get to 30 here) - David Akers (Once had a streak of 19 straight postseason FGs but not as reliable lately and most likely on his way out in Philly) - Jeff Reed (One of the top clutch kickers until 2010) - Desean Jackson (A really clutch Returner, New Miracle at the Meadowlands being the most recent, but not so clutch at WR) - Devin Hester (Another clutch returner but not clutch WR. If they could only turn on the trait during returns it would work but making him clutch as a receiver too would just be wrong) Feel free to tear my list apart

To start with, I like the idea of the 3 lists, and good job, it seems like you put a lot of thought into this. However, should they just get rid of the playoff performer role, because it seems you took both into consideration. Not sure I agree entirely with Fitzgerald as Elite, and possibly not even Aaron Rodgers. Both fit way better as playoff performers, if they keep this role. I would move Josh Freeman to second tier, because he has so many comebacks early in his career. Good job listing some kickers, because I forgot about some of them, especially Bironas who IMO is top 3 kicker in the NFL. There also has to be a distinction between clutch and good. Tough to separate but important to do so. I think Bess and Avant should go on the list, since both make key catches on 3rd downs. Also, I definitely wouldn't have Mendenhall near this list. He did have an OT run against Atlanta, but that's all I can think of. I agree, there aren't any RB's that come to mind that should be clutch. Overall, well thought out, and decent list!!

[thegreatape01]

Quote: Originally Posted by carnalnirvana

if clutch existed, it would not be in team sports especially football. there are too many people involved in a play for one person to be considered a more pressure performer. vineteri on those raider kicks, awesome, but what about the snapper, holder... brady on those drives, how about troy brown, patten, givens anyway in sports like tennis/golf maybe you can improve your performance but if the line does not block there is no brady, manning Ben heroics, also in basketball clutch is overrated, they miss more last second shots than they make, also superstar players attempt more of those shots than people who are better shooters. i wonder if steve kerr attempted 100 last second threes if he would make as many as jordan made 2's....hmmmm

They get more shots because they are able to create their own shot. Kerr would need to get open coming off a screen or someone else creating a shot for him. Kerr did hit some big shots back in the day though. I have no problem saying clutch is overrated, but to say it doesn't exist like the one guy was saying or that pressure doesn't impact performance seems silly to me

[TheGame8544]

Quote: Originally Posted by Palo20

Another guy who is just really good. Does he "step up his game" or is he always just the best WR in football?

How in the hell can you be the best wr in football and not be considered clutch?

Sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

[HeavyHitter55]

Quote: Originally Posted by brza37

Here's my shot at the 30 players that will have the clutch trait at release of M12: The Elite 11 (No explanations necessary) - Tom Brady (Patriots) - Peyton Manning (Colts) - Aaron Rodgers (Packers) - Ben Roethlisberger (Steelers) - Santonio Holmes (Jets) - Adam Vinatieri (Colts) - Troy Palomolu (Steelers) - Ed Reed (Ravens) - Larry Fitzgerald (Cardinals) - Drew Brees (Saints) - Ray Lewis (Ravens) Second Tier (Next 11) - James Harrison (Super Bowl XLII) (Steelers) - Darelle Revis (He shuts down all the time, including in the clutch) (Jets) - Antonio Gates (Chargers' go to guy) (Chargers) - Greg Jennings (Finally earned his long due recognition nationally during super bowl run) (Packers) - Charles Woodson (Long career with a lot of big plays) (Packers) - Clay Matthews (riding the success of a huge 2010 campaign) (Packers) - Matt Bryant (Still hurting Eagles fans with his 62-yard game winner in 2006. Has had many since then) (Buccaneers) - Rob Bironas (Probably the most underrated game winning kicker) (Titans) - Robbie Gould (bunch of game winners in horrible Windy City conditions) (Bears) - Dallas Clark (Peyton's go to guy) (Colts) - Hines Ward (Big Ben's go to guy) (Steelers) - Matt Ryan (He has a bunch of regular season 4th quarter comebacks and a cool nickname already in his young career but until he pulls one off in the playoffs I'll doubt him) (Falcons) On the Bubble (14 players on the bubble to fill out 7 spots) - Philip Rivers (see above, playoffs are where clutch QBs are made) (Chargers) - Mark Sanchez (is it really him or his stellar defense?) (Jets) - Josh Freeman (sample size is too small and gotta do it in the playoffs but I think EA may give him the nod) (Buccaneers) - Asante Samuel (Gets ragged on for his awful tackling but has made a ton of picks over his career and a few on big stages, playoffs, MNF etc.) (Eagles) - Tramon Williams (Huge playoff run last year but probably too small of a sample size. Is the one season enough to get him a Clutch rating in EA's eyes?) (Packers) - Darren Sharper (Is he the same player that he was two years ago?) (Saints) - Rashard Mendenhall (List just didn't feel right without one RB, but its hard to justify anyone) (Steelers) - Marshawn Lynch (Does one huge run in one career playoff game justify a clutch rating? I doubt it but I mean he did cause an earthquake...) (Seahawks) - Roddy White (Falcons) - Maurice Jones Drew (oh yeah, playoffs. forget it, just grabbing at straws with RBs to get to 30 here) (Jaguars) - David Akers (Once had a streak of 19 straight postseason FGs but not as reliable lately and most likely on his way out in Philly) (Eagles) - Jeff Reed (One of the top clutch kickers until 2010) (Steelers) - Desean Jackson (A really clutch Returner, New Miracle at the Meadowlands being the most recent, but not so clutch at WR) (Eagles) - Devin Hester (Another clutch returner but not clutch WR. If they could only turn on the trait during returns it would work but making him clutch as a receiver too would just be wrong) (Bears) Feel free to tear my list apart

If everyone you listed were to be put as a clutch player, the list would look like this:

• Patriots: 1
• Colts: 3
• Packers: 5
• Steelers: 6
• Jets: 3
• Ravens: 2
• Cardinals: 1
• Saints: 2
• Chargers: 2
• Buccaneers: 2
• Titans: 1
• Bears: 2
• Falcons: 2
• Eagles: 3
• Seahawks: 1
• Jaguars: 1

If you ask me, the Packers and Steelers are stacked with the Colts, Jets and Eagles following. Having 5 and 6 clutch players, respectively, on one team is insanity.

Lets face it, some of these players are simply products of their environment. Both the Packers and Steelers have real good defenses, so do they truly step up, or do they simply take advantage of the scheme? On the Packers you have: Raji, Matthews, Barnett, Woodson, Hawk and Williams out there. On the Steelers you have: Farrior, Foote, Hampton, Harrison, Kiesel, that Polamalu guy, Smith, Timmons, Woodley. All good players at the very least.

There's a very sensitive balance that must be known and observed here when it comes to clutch players:

• Players who take advantage of the scheme
• Players who are flat out the best at their position

Using these two things, a lot of players may be eliminated from the clutch list. To me, in order to be clutch, you must prove it time and again that you're able to pull out a win when the pressure of 52 other guys is on your shoulders and truly play better than you would 99 times out of 100 in those specific situations.

So with that, I may employ the rule of having clutch players be limited to players with an overall rating below 89.

(I know you said that your list was for guys on the fence. I just wanted to include everyone you had mentioned.)

[HeavyHitter55]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheGame8544

How in the hell can you be the best wr in football and not be considered clutch? Sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

What Palo is talking about is: Does a specific player truly play better or does he seem to play better when in fact he's just playing how he normally would, just under pressure? It's this question that would justify having a choke trait. There's guys who are:

• Clutch but don't choke
• Clutch but can choke (counter-intuitive, and negating, I know)
• Not clutch and choke
• Not clutch but don't choke

Palo is referring to guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady who I'd classify as guys who aren't necessarily clutch but also don't have a tendency to choke when the pressure is on. They're flat out good, period.

There's a gray area here that everyone is finding difficulty defining, and a choke trait would help get rid of this very easily.

[carnalnirvana]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheGame8544

How in the hell can you be the best wr in football and not be considered clutch? Sorry but your logic makes zero sense.

i think peyton manning could have answered this before he won his ring.

i think its possible to be a good player and not be what people consider.... clutch

i dont believe in clutch.....in team sports especially if clutch is based on wins....

look at that cardinal steelers SB we say ben and holmes played clutch but what happened this year to Ben... is he somehow not clutch anymore....

i believe his team played better to get that win in the past and they played bad this time........its the same thing i have argued for years with the manning brady debate....

manning made many plays to get his team in position only to have the others lose the game he got labeled a choker

brady made plays to put his guys in position his guys made plays/awesome kicks he gets labeled clutch....

its dependent on your team, i believe both QB's are great but its not golf your team has to show up......