Who is Clutch?

[brza37]

Quote: Originally Posted by at23steelers

To start with, I like the idea of the 3 lists, and good job, it seems like you put a lot of thought into this. However, should they just get rid of the playoff performer role, because it seems you took both into consideration. Not sure I agree entirely with Fitzgerald as Elite, and possibly not even Aaron Rodgers. Both fit way better as playoff performers, if they keep this role. I would move Josh Freeman to second tier, because he has so many comebacks early in his career. Good job listing some kickers, because I forgot about some of them, especially Bironas who IMO is top 3 kicker in the NFL. There also has to be a distinction between clutch and good. Tough to separate but important to do so. I think Bess and Avant should go on the list, since both make key catches on 3rd downs. Also, I definitely wouldn't have Mendenhall near this list. He did have an OT run against Atlanta, but that's all I can think of. I agree, there aren't any RB's that come to mind that should be clutch. Overall, well thought out, and decent list!!

Thanks. I thought of clutch as meaning having a history of making big plays at the end of games with more weight on big games (playoffs, end of season, MNF etc). I didn't think of 3rd downs but thats a good point. Avant and Bess are big in that regard.

Quote: Originally Posted by HeavyHitter55

If everyone you listed were to be put as a clutch player, the list would look like this: Patriots: 1 Colts: 3 Packers: 5 Steelers: 6 Jets: 3 Ravens: 2 Cardinals: 1 Saints: 2 Chargers: 2 Buccaneers: 2 Titans: 1 Bears: 2 Falcons: 2 Eagles: 3 Seahawks: 1 Jaguars: 1 If you ask me, the Packers and Steelers are stacked with the Colts, Jets and Eagles following. Having 5 and 6 clutch players, respectively, on one team is insanity. Lets face it, some of these players are simply products of their environment. Both the Packers and Steelers have real good defenses, so do they truly step up, or do they simply take advantage of the scheme? On the Packers you have: Raji, Matthews, Barnett, Woodson, Hawk and Williams out there. On the Steelers you have: Farrior, Foote, Hampton, Harrison, Kiesel, that Polamalu guy, Smith, Timmons, Woodley. All good players at the very least. There's a very sensitive balance that must be known and observed here when it comes to clutch players: Players who take advantage of the scheme Players who are flat out the best at their position Using these two things, a lot of players may be eliminated from the clutch list. To me, in order to be clutch, you must prove it time and again that you're able to pull out a win when the pressure of 52 other guys is on your shoulders and truly play better than you would 99 times out of 100 in those specific situations. So with that, I may employ the rule of having clutch players be limited to players with an overall rating below 89. (I know you said that your list was for guys on the fence. I just wanted to include everyone you had mentioned.)

Thanks for the feedback too. I believe one of the devs said there would be 30 clutch players on the release date rosters. I have 37 on the list because of bubble players and I fully expect them to cap the max clutch players on one team at around 3 so I doubt we'll see more than that on a team either. I do think that several teams will be without one single clutch player while other teams who have won alot and consistently made the playoffs over the past 5 years will have a few clutch players each.

And I know there is a huge debate on whether clutch actually exists or not but thats not what my list is about. We know for a fact there is a clutch rating in M12 and I just wanted to take a guess at the players that will most likely make the 30 man cut.

But I don't agree that clutch players should be under 89 overall. Most clutch players will be rated in the upper 90s. But just because they perform at a very high level the first 58 minutes doesn't mean they will do that in the last 2 or in the playoffs. We've seen just recently one of the top NBA players come up small in the 4th quarter of the finals.

And on the topic of whether "clutch" exists or not, on paper or statistically it may work out the same and disprove the theory of "clutch" but for a lot of people who have played a team sport in a pressure situation feel that there is something that can't truly be defined by the statistics, the scheme or whatever. Someone has to step up and make a play with all the pressure on them and when that someone comes through more often than they don't thats what many people call clutch. Thats just my opinion though.

[HeavyHitter55]

Quote: Originally Posted by brza37

Thanks for the feedback too. I believe one of the devs said there would be 30 clutch players on the release date rosters. I have 37 on the list because of bubble players and I fully expect them to cap the max clutch players on one team at around 3 so I doubt we'll see more than that on a team either. I do think that several teams will be without one single clutch player while other teams who have won alot and consistently made the playoffs over the past 5 years will have a few clutch players each. And I know there is a huge debate on whether clutch actually exists or not but thats not what my list is about. We know for a fact there is a clutch rating in M12 and I just wanted to take a guess at the players that will most likely make the 30 man cut. But I don't agree that clutch players should be under 89 overall. Most clutch players will be rated in the upper 90s. But just because they perform at a very high level the first 58 minutes doesn't mean they will do that in the last 2 or in the playoffs. We've seen just recently one of the top NBA players come up small in the 4th quarter of the finals. And on the topic of whether "clutch" exists or not, on paper or statistically it may work out the same and disprove the theory of "clutch" but for a lot of people who have played a team sport in a pressure situation feel that there is something that can't truly be defined by the statistics, the scheme or whatever. Someone has to step up and make a play with all the pressure on them and when that someone comes through more often than they don't thats what many people call clutch. Thats just my opinion though.

Oh, no, I completely agree with you that there's clutch players. What I'm referring to is how much of a team sport truly comes down to just one player at one specific moment? And what hasn't been answered yet (from what I've seen/read) is: how much does the clutch rating actually effect the tangibles of a player and his teammates? We're all trying to define who should/is clutch, yet we don't know what the magnitude of their effect is that EA has defined. If we know that information, it should make defining this list a little easier.

[brza37]

True. Good point.

[at23steelers]

Quote: Originally Posted by HeavyHitter55

Oh, no, I completely agree with you that there's clutch players. What I'm referring to is how much of a team sport truly comes down to just one player at one specific moment? And what hasn't been answered yet (from what I've seen/read) is: how much does the clutch rating actually effect the tangibles of a player and his teammates? We're all trying to define who should/is clutch, yet we don't know what the magnitude of their effect is that EA has defined. If we know that information, it should make defining this list a little easier.

Also, I forget if this was mentioned or if I have mentioned this before or not, but clutch should not affect physical attributes like speed, strength,acceleration, or throwing power. It's not like Santonio Holmes magically gets stronger and quicker in the last two minutes. Instead it should affect: catching, route running, awareness, catch in traffic, throwing accuracy, etc.

[RogueHominid]

This discussion comes up much more frequently in baseball circles, with Cramer's study that "clutch" hitting cannot be statistically verified being the big landmark. The approach taken by Cramer and by the many studies that followed his is relevant to this discussion because the idea of a clutch performer on the gridiron would have lots more traction if we knew *exactly* what we were talking about.

If we were to define this precisely enough to justify giving players the attribute in Madden, we'd have to come to agreement on a handful of things: what statistical categories will we count? What will constitute a statistically significant sample size? And will we measure a player's clutch ability against his own "normal" metrics in a given set of categories, or against those of his peers?

Generating meaningful statistical categories is tougher than one might think. You certainly want TD:INT ratios, 3rd down conversions and late-game scenarios for QBs, and 3rd down conversions perhaps for WR/TE, and sacks on 3rd down for DL/OLB but you don't want to create a system where completing a few third down conversions makes a WR "clutch" when they're just "good."

If these categories are actually meaningful, then you have to get a statistically significant sample size. This is what makes football lots harder than baseball--there are just fewer attempts of every kind. It would seem to me that in order to tell if a given QB is clutch, you'd have to have at least a couple of seasons' worth of 3rd and 10 conversion data before you could tell if a QB's performance in a given season or playoff game was statistically well above his average on that down and distance in regular game situations. You then have to see what the odds are from a statistical perspective, that one above-average game or series could be the product of sheer randomness.

Can one season's performance, or even one big game's performance really stand as evidence enough of an inherent "clutch" ability? If baseball would require 400 AB before making conclusions, what would football require?

Someone with a background in statistics should do a case study on Big Ben, who seems to be today's NFL's equivalent of Derek Jeter in terms of his public perception as a clutch performer. That would be a fun discussion topic.

As it stands, I'm also of the mind that I'll edit clutch out as an attribute unless I think there's a bulletproof reason for a player having it. I'd rather see 3 players in the league with it than 30. To me, consistency is a better attribute. The ability to perform close to one's maximum potential every game out might be part of what distinguishes the players we view as clutch from everyone else.

This is a great topic, btw, to the OP!

[brza37]

By the way, Donny just said in the chat that there are currently only 20 or so players with the clutch trait. So I guess I didn't have to stretch to put all those bubble players on my list after all.

DPP Dev Wes Reinhart also said about clutch's effects:

Quote:

Wes Reinhart: The clutch trait affects the pre-existing ratings during clutch moments in the game such as the last two minutes or overtime when the game is within a possession. It is a significant boost to the relevant ratings for that player, but it's not going to guarantee success because at the end of the day it's still in your hands and YOU need to make the right reads to the right players.

Was hoping for something a bit more concrete on that though.

Oh wait, he's gonna answer my question now:

Quote:

can you explain what ratings will be affected with the clutch trait? Does clutch only affect the player who has it or also boost other players around him?

Quote:

Wes Reinhart: Great question! The clutch trait will affect position relevant ratings. For example, a QB will have his accuracy increased as well as his PA rating, Awareness, and others, but not his throw power or speed for obvious reasons. Most players will only affect themselves for the clutch rating (I.e. they get better) with the exception of QBs who also have a boost to their offensive line.

Good stuff. I'm glad physical ratings won't be effected.

Morte clutch info:

Quote:

Donny Moore: Yes sir! Defensive stars like Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed, and Clay Matthews all have the clutch rating.

Picked 3 more players right in my list.