Potential Speed Fix?

[btemp]

I was lamenting the dominance of speed still in Madden and why speed doesn't directly translate to talent. The difference is certainly abilities, such as coverage ability, route running, catching etc. but its difficult for Madden as its currently designed to make that next step. In Madden if you have a 65 OVR WR with 99 speed that player can still dominate when he has separation from defenders, lots of crossing routes etc. In the NFL this is easy to shut down, but the Madden ai isn't there yet. That's fine, but how do you work around it?

One thought I had was to make high speed low OVR players sluggish under user control. You could correlate "sluggishness" to attributes like AGI, AWR, whatever you want. The fix here being that whenever you grab that crappy but fast HB, he's going to struggle to read those holes and that sluggishness mimics his ability to directly translate his speed onto the field. The sluggishness may not work for a WR getting separation, but once the user takes control that 65 OVR speedster becomes unwieldy. The beauty is that speed is retained, he still is 99, but his ability to react to what's happening on the football field is reduced.

Thoughts?

[spfhelmiii]

We'll see if this is addressed with better zone defense - an improvement that has been touted heavily in Madden 12. That's really the answer for me.

Using, say, Ted Ginn as an example.... if he runs just a slant or a go, once get gets into the route (i.e. not his immediate burst) NO one should be able to stick with him through the straightline portion of the route. Thus, you do need a safety overtop on the go routes, which actually does make speedy guys value for freeing up other players. On a slant, solid zone coverage should mean that while he separates from his initial defender, he should be picked up across the remainder of his route by other defenders. Overall, I do NOT want to nerf his straightline speed.

However, any time he makes a cut, it should be awful... it should be rounded, not sharp, and he should not burst out of the cut but rather be pretty sluggish for a moment. Basically, you should fear throwing to him anytime after a cut until he gets settled running straight again. In this way, receivers like Wes Welker will be valuable... their lack of straightline speed means you won't need a safety over the top, but his routes should be so quick and sharp that he is generally open after a cut unless someone can get in the path of the ball.

If that's the same as what you're suggesting, we're on the same page. I just don't want to damped the value of straightline speed guys opening up defenses over the top and with simple slants... you just have to make sure the user uses these players correctly.

[Broncos86]

I'm always against manufactured handicaps in order to "fix" something in Madden. I recall, prior to Madden 10, the QB drop back was sped up beyond a realistic speed in order to help combat nanos. That's not the right way to fix the issue. Fix the darn nanos, which happened in Madden 10.

Speed is an issue because player momentum and what's physically possible aren't properly occurring in Madden. Players in Madden perform physical feats that really shouldn't happen. LBs that have Spiderman reflexes and Superman hops, and CBs / WRs that can jump nearly straight up into the air at top speed. I dare someone to run at top speed, then see how high into the air they can jump (no slowing down!).

The other side of the coin is that, in the NFL, a WR's blinding speed can't always overcome proper body positioning. A young rookie may not box out the CB properly, etc. In Madden, WRs have terrible body awareness and ball judgment. It's ridiculous to see a WR continue to run along the path in an attempt to catch the ball on his hip while the CB stops (on a dime after running at top speed), turns around, and jumps to make the pick. And we're talking WRs like Fitzgerald doing this. Fitzgerald would've attempted to body out that DB and fight for that ball.

This is why speed reigns, currently. Because that which counteracts speed (knowledge and experience) isn't always well-represented in Madden. So to make up for it, we get LBs and DBs who cheat. As a result, we gamers find ways to cheat the cheaters with money plays like slant routes.

[Only1LT]

No offense OP, but i don't like your suggestion.

The "fix" for the issue that you bring up is to "fix", what is in my opinion to be, a horrible locomotion system.

As Bronco mentioned, as long as the locomotion system allows players to perform superhuman feats, there will always be issues with the gameplay. Speed is still too much of an end all be all to who is a good player. I know that they tried to make Acceleration and other aspects matter with their focus on loco last year, but it still doesn't work. Accel might be a factor for taking off from a standstill position, but after that the loco system allows you to zig and zag all over at top speed, with no foot plants, no re-balancing, no slow down, so Accel never comes into the equation again.

When, and if, they actually implement a loco system that is at least somewhat realistic, you'll see a lot of issues go away.

When strength, weight, and momentum have little to no role in the game, and you don't need to slow down to make cuts, how could anything other than speed matter?

[Broncos86]

I was reading a few comments regarding the NCAA 12 demo, and I read a lot of positive comments about momentum. I can't wait to see this tonight when I DL the demo, and I'm hoping the momentum is universal. If it is, and it affects cuts, stops, etc., then that could be a good step towards a solution.

/fingerscrossed

Edit: I'm watching Pasta Padre's videos of the demo. If you watch how the players cut, it looks a pretty fluid. The momentum itself looks nice. Still watching it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIN26...layer_embedded

[btemp]

@spfhelmiii - yes, we're on the same page

@Broncos86, Only1LT - I agree that the problem ideally needs a deeper fix. The problem I have is that it hasn't been fixed and that it seems the solution won't come in this generation of madden particularly because the problems are too many. Speed dominates for WRs as mentioned because they lack awareness, for backs because avoiding a tackle is far more efficient then breaking them and a user controlled player doesn't need AWR, for LBs again because the interaction with O-line is problematic, etc. etc.. Part of this is as Only1LT mentions an issue with the engine. With of all of this I completely agree.

I just don't see it being changed any time soon and I think this "fix" that could be implemented for Madden 13. Further, even with the above being corrected you'll still run into some trouble with user controlled HBs and LBs because the key difference between a 3rd string guy with 99 speed and an All-Pro with 80 speed is the ability to read defenses/offenses.

[Broncos86]

I disagree, because the problem is simply fixing momentum and allowing momentum to carry through and affect cut animations. That's simply math, very fixable. Take a player's momentum and apply an algorithm and calculates the length and speed that the cut animation should play. Various cut animations (for example an out route vs. a slant) will penalize momentum more or less.

Watch the video I linked and watch some of the cuts that WRs take during routes in replays.

Quote: Originally Posted by btemp

Further, even with the above being corrected you'll still run into some trouble with user controlled HBs and LBs because the key difference between a 3rd string guy with 99 speed and an All-Pro with 80 speed is the ability to read defenses/offenses.

That's not a "problem," that's part of Madden's core gameplay. The judgment of the player we're in control of has always been left to the gamer. I disagree with any point of view that suggests the player should be further hampered simply because the gamer choose to control the player. Make them play to their physical selves, and if the gamer controls the player, then all decisions are the gamers. Don't mingle AI decision making with physical attributes. One uses the other, but your awareness doesn't affect your physical ability to run at a specific speed or cut. It affects when you cut, or how you choose to cut, but not your physical capabilities of cutting.

[pierre88]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I disagree, because the problem is simply fixing momentum and allowing momentum to carry through and affect cut animations. That's simply math, very fixable. Take a player's momentum and apply an algorithm and calculates the length and speed that the cut animation should play. Various cut animations (for example an out route vs. a slant) will penalize momentum more or less. Watch the video I linked and watch some of the cuts that WRs take during routes in replays. That's not a "problem," that's part of Madden's core gameplay. The judgment of the player we're in control of has always been left to the gamer. I disagree with any point of view that suggests the player should be further hampered simply because the gamer choose to control the player. Make them play to their physical selves, and if the gamer controls the player, then all decisions are the gamers. Don't mingle AI decision making with physical attributes. One uses the other, but your awareness doesn't affect your physical ability to run at a specific speed or cut. It affects when you cut, or how you choose to cut, but not your physical capabilities of cutting.

I agree with you. the weak 69 rated WR. with top end speed get away with to much. that is why people play with the raiders then the packers. In real life the packers do damage because the WR can run great routes. But in madden route running doesn't seem to matter at all. That is why you can't really get open on curl routes or in or out routes.