Why aren't people focused on improvement?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by spit_bubble

The real question should be, why can' the developers focus on improvement?

Ths simple reason devs can't improve the game is that is has become too much to too many. IMO, it's time to split FRANCHISE OFF to make it it's own title with it's own devs and resources because Madden as a single title cannot satisfy the vast reasons we play this game.

I'm contemplating doing a video tracking the history of how EA has dumbed down the game considerably since online play began by illustrating several nuances of a particular 4-3 defense from Madden NFL 2003 that literally morphs into at least 3 other defenses with a few shifts... Those nuances disappeared after the 1st year of online play because of all the people that don't pay attention to the game they are playing.

I assume ya'll know how much I love playing Madden, but playing the CPU sucks. IMO, if you play the CPU or you play for fun - You're missing it. This game is only fun when you have something emotional to play for. If I only played the CPU, I might buy Madden once every 3-4 years. But since I play for the head-to-head competition - I can't stop playing.

It's that big a difference!!!

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

Wake me up when they move away from this ridiculously arcadey locomotion system with zig zagging and cutting on a dime at full speed, and actually go to an ultra realistic locomotion model.

Unlike most, I don't expect the players to move realistically because the player models are realistic. If they replaced the player models with barrels, giant chess pieces, or checkers - the game would hold the EXACT SAME APPEAL to me.

The X's. The O's. The Challenge. The Competition.

Quote: Originally Posted by falconfansince81

not really our job to improve the game...

100% agreed. It is not our job to improve the game's software. That said, it is our job to be adept at using the software.

For instance... Take a word processor. It's just software. Alone it does nothing; but in the hands of a skilled wordsmith it can bring new worlds to life.

Of course, everybody that owns word processor software is capable of creating a masterpiece. Let's get real, most people with a word processor program write CRAP. But is it the program's fault that the writer can's spell, punctuate, or capitalize properly?

Some might say - YES. A good word processor has spell and grammar check. Seems sensible until you think about what makes a writer great... The guys who write CRAP need these tools because a person who can't spell, punctuate, or capitalize properly would rely on the software's spelling and grammar check. A great writer understands the rules of spelling and grammar and does not rely on the CPU to correct their errors.

This analogy applies to Madden... Guys that haven't mastered the basics of the game are the most likely to complain when the Madden "Spell Check" doesn't give them the word suggestions they need when the real probelm is that they themselves are a poor speller. It's easier to complain about the spell check than learn to spell.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Point 1 seems to imply that Madden can't be realistically difficult and easily accessible but I disagree. I like to compare it to DOS mode on a CPU versus using an operating system. A CPU and it's programs can be very complicated along with difficult to master but operating systems make them accessible to the masses. That's how Madden should be in relation to being the most realistic NFL simulation game possible. The difficulty settings and sliders should control how much user input is required. That would allow the masses to tailor the game to their comfort level without sacrificing any realism. I said before in another thread that two players, one on Rookie difficulty and the other on All Madden difficulty, should be able to play head to head online/offline. Football should be football, no matter the difficulty level, with the difference being the User interface and user input required. In that system, the challenge for a player like you would be mastering the manual intricacies and nuances of everything from gap assignments to tiered defense play calling while a novice would have those things automated. The novice would also have to deal with a loss of control because the lower difficulty settings should automate football fundamentals like proper QB drop back, proper pass technique, play calling restrictions. This would all promote players to learn more about real NFL football in order to play on higher difficulty levels for more user control. The standard for all levels being that, real football parameters are in place so the more control the user takes, the more responsible they are for adjusting to those parameters.

Let's be honest... Madden may be too simple to play. Follow me:

Madden has long had a reputation for being a heavily offensive game. That's because you can teach a 5-year old the basics about playing offense in about 3-5 minutes. The running game and passing interface are incredibly easy to explain and use.

After the initial parts of the passing game are learned, there's also the button pressure, locating the ball with the stick, and using timing routes (aka Route Based Passing), etc...

Your point about the CPU automating things is a valid one... Currently, many players lean heavily on the CPU to make plays, then get upset when the CPU doesn't make the right one. This wouldn't be a big deal except these people COULD make the play themselves but they don't. Odds are, they complain about the CPU because they aren't yet able to utilize the control they are given to perform better than the CPU.

My motto is: Why let the CPU screw up what I can screw up myself. I user control on offense, defense, special teams because I can yell at the "spell check" or I can hone my spelling skills (to reuse my analogy).

But when the CPU does practically everything on every level - there's no incentive to learn how to play the game as a user. I'm adamantly against automating things so lower skilled players have even more reason to watch and complain. If anything, I'd prefer some type of system that tracked USER PERFORMANCE for yards, tackles, catches, etc...

Quote: Originally Posted by Only1LT

I disagree as well lol. Something as simple (not really simple, but go with it) as making the locomotion system realistic would make the game more difficult. Not being able to cut on a dime and having to actually slow down to change direction makes the game more difficult. I didn't say impossible to play mind you, just more difficult. This is only one example. There are many. The passing system is border line Special Ed. Can you imagine the outcry if they actually tried to add realism to that aspect of the game. Oh wait. You don't have to imagine it. You just need to read these, or any, forums. If the masses thought Vision Cone was too complicated (not saying it was a good mechanic or that it was even all that realistic, but complicated? Come on) then what are we really talking about? There is no way that adding realism to any game would not make it harder. Not impossible, just harder. And harder is not something that most people want, regardless of what they claim on a forum site.

Odd... I have several friends that are gamers, but don't play Madden. They say it's too hard. Even the "special ed" interface is too hard for these college educated people. It's not that the interface is really hard, but rather the effort required to build the necessary muscle memory to play Madden well is too much.

Guys like myself can take the snap, read the defense, spot the open man, and make the right throw without thinking about it. It's instinctive. Much like the real NFL (can we say SIM?), that level of instinctively executing only comes from thousands of reps.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I went back a read some of the other posts from TNT and I think some of the difference of opinion comes from competition versus simulation. Some people are of the opinion that because you can compete in Madden using football tactics against people using "whatever works" in the game, that makes Madden a football simulation. I am of the opinion that the very fact that football tactics are optional instead of required, for success in a football game supposedly attempting to be realistic, demonstrates it's not a football simulation but capable of being a fun and competitive game. It's like this notion exists that if it's possible in Madden and Madden is a football game, then it must be football. Really? A simulation should allow people to do whatever they want in a virtual environment while replicating real world outcomes. In Madden, player actions aren't virtually regulated by adequately representing real football's risk/reward. I think some people occasionally lose sight of the fact that NFL football is supposed to be the standard for Madden and not the other way around. LOL

Good points... But football tactics are not optional. They are an integral part of the strategies people use. Vince Lombardi once said football is nothing but blocking and tackling. Same for Madden. Over the past few years I've kept a keen eye on why I lose games. Either I didn't manage the clock, make a play on the ball, block a rusher, etc. but it's always a football reason.

If Mike sends personnel on the field, picks the formation, calls the assignments, and makes the pre-snap adjustments after seeing the other team line up... Why would he blame Earl when his instructions aren't successful? I don't lose because of the AI. I lose because of TNT713. My opponent is playing the same exact software I'm playing. Typing on the same word processor, if you will...

Unorthodox football tactics work in Madden and in real life when the opposing team is not prepared for them. If you are prepared, these fake football tactics work as well as expected.

But we have tons of Madden players that refuse to make their own plays seemingly with no clue how much of a role they play in countering their opponent. It's not cool lean on the CPU then blame it for your problems.

To get back to the point... EA can't improve the game on some levels because they are too many of us who let our skills stagnate. Its hard to improve the word processor when those who haven't learned to spell, punctuate, or capitalize haven't taken steps to master themselves...

I don't envy the devs... They have an impossible job. They can't please me and some of you guys too. We play for such drastically different reasons there's no way Madden can do it all anymore...

Later

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

We are talking about people that say they want a more realistic game, right? If so, I don't see why, given the option of having something like player movement respective of physics automated or manually have total control of player movement, including it's risk/reward, those people would find the game too hard to play. I think that is a reasonable solution for how Madden could be more realistic without becoming too difficult. Like you stated though, I guess we just disagree about how "reasonable" people who say they want a more realistic Madden, really are.

Like I said before, I believe it when people say they want sim, I'm just saying that they don't want it as much as they think they do.

Start any discussion on game, in any genre, that has to do with making it more real, and I guarantee you will be inundated by words like "fun", "balance", and "complicated."

Been there and done that too many times to count.

[Only1LT]

To TNT,

I'm glad that the game would hold the same appeal for you...

As far as your spell check analogy, you might want to consider the possibility that some people can spell, which allows them to see that the spell check made a mistake in the first place...

[Big FN Deal]

@TNT, you seem to sometimes lose sight of the fact that Madden's ultimate goal should be to imitate the NFL inside the confines of playing football, not imitate real life in general. What I mean is, Madden should not be allowing gamers to set the standard for football tactics because football tactics not used or not proven effective in the actual NFL, should follow suit in Madden.

Like I said, it's cool that some people enjoy the competition found in Madden but it doesn't adequately simulate NFL competition. You actually articulated this point better than I did right here.

"If you are prepared, these fake football tactics work as well as expected."

No reasonable person should expect to prepare for "fake football tactics" in a supposedly realistic football game. In the real NFL, that's called cheating.

Think about it like this, the NFL rules committee sets the standard for NFL football play each season and that's the parameters everyone must operate within. The real NFL should be that same standard for Madden but it hasn't been these past 6 years.

[mikenever]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

Seeing all the effort people put into discussing whether or not people should "hate" Madden has given me a thought. Why don't more people put more effort into discussing ways to improve the game? People expend huge amounts of energy here discussing the past or pointing out flaws, but it seems there is so little effort put into coming up with ideas that would make the game better. More importantly, it seems like there is very little effort put into refining or improving upon other people's ideas for the game. This community could easily be a hotbed of ideas for improving Madden, and yet the Wishlist section is a ghost town compared to other sections. If people would take the energy they put towards bashing the game or discussing the past and turn it towards trying to improve what we have, we might end up with nothing to complain about. What do you think? Should this community try to focus more on improving the game?

It's pointless to throw ideas around. EA has struggled with the basics on this game for so long, that things like features are pointless to discuss. EA doesn't improve the game in certain areas because they haven't had to...which pretty much makes such discussion a pointless exercise.

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by mikenever

It's pointless to throw ideas around. EA has struggled with the basics on this game for so long, that things like features are pointless to discuss. EA doesn't improve the game in certain areas because they haven't had to...which pretty much makes such discussion a pointless exercise.

So you don't care about any of the additions to Madden 12? If not, then you're probably never going to be happy with the game. Yes, there are some fundamental problems with the gameplay, but that does not prevent, for example, franchise mode from being the best mode it can be.
I just don't understand your mindset. Even if the game is flawed, it can still be improved in many ways. Why is it pointless to try to improve the game?

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

So you don't care about any of the additions to Madden 12? If not, then you're probably never going to be happy with the game. Yes, there are some fundamental problems with the gameplay, but that does not prevent, for example, franchise mode from being the best mode it can be. I just don't understand your mindset. Even if the game is flawed, it can still be improved in many ways. Why is it pointless to try to improve the game?

The problem with this type oaf assessment is:

A. You are assuming everyone plays Madden for the franchise mode.
B. People who DO play the franchise mode, I think would like the actual games PLAYED(on the field) in franchise mode to be bug free, cheat free, glitch free games.

If every year the core game play is not fixed then I think one can reasonably expect there will be complaining about it.

You started a thread on why people aren't focused on improvement in the face of the fact there have been MANY posts about improving the game.
With that in mind, How many improvements has EA brought to this gen madden that were not already in the last gen games ? How have they advanced this genre in any aspect of it despite all the posts of ideas on how to improve the game ?

They are just now catching up to 2008. You do realize AP2K8 had custom playbooks. Still has better animations, tackling, man coverage, zone coverage, Formation audibles, you can send multiple men in motion, players attributes are better , easier to adjust hot routes, defensive coverage shells, O'line double teams, Dline calls can be made independent of the play called. A better challenge system, better replay system.

In the face of all that how can you wonder why there are so many people upset ?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@TNT, you seem to sometimes lose sight of the fact that Madden's ultimate goal should be to imitate the NFL inside the confines of playing football, not imitate real life in general. What I mean is, Madden should not be allowing gamers to set the standard for football tactics because football tactics not used or not proven effective in the actual NFL, should follow suit in Madden. Like I said, it's cool that some people enjoy the competition found in Madden but it doesn't adequately simulate NFL competition. You actually articulated this point better than I did right here. "If you are prepared, these fake football tactics work as well as expected." No reasonable person should expect to prepare for "fake football tactics" in a supposedly realistic football game. In the real NFL, that's called cheating. Think about it like this, the NFL rules committee sets the standard for NFL football play each season and that's the parameters everyone must operate within. The real NFL should be that same standard for Madden but it hasn't been these past 6 years.

BigFNDeal,

I wholeheartedly understand your point because I've stood where you stand... But I've learned through years of experience that the assertion you are making is missing a key element that is 100% necessary to create a SIM environment: Skill

In real life EVERYONE in the NFL is skilled at performing their role from players, to coaches, to the ball boys. If this were also true in Madden, this discussion would never have to take place.

Follow me here: There are 120+ colleges in the US with football programs. Each of these teams carries upward of 60 players on the roster. Yet, there are only about 1800 professional players. Meaning there are THOUSANDS of players good enough to play college, but not god enough to play PRO. Dare I say that of the 1800 professional players, many of them are hanging by a thread because their skill set makes them JUST GOOD ENOUGH to play...

But look around the OS community... Strategy is NOT the strong point of this community. The strategy section is a proverbial ghost town all year long. Indeed, there are about 5 people that post to OS forums that I trust to discuss X's and O's in a knowledgeable fashion. That said, there seem to be hundreds of OS'ers that can discuss 'fake football' endlessly...

When I mentioned earlier that I have been where you stand, I meant it. When Madden '03 went online, I got my head smashed in. After some soul-searching I discovered that I had the following strategic weaknesses:

• A-Gap Blitzes
• Scrambling Quarterbacks
• Stacked Defenses
• Compressed Formations
• Motion Compression Offenses
• Defending No-Huddle
• Instantly Adjusting Assignments and Position
• Reading Coverage
• Throwing Passes with Control

So when I first went online to find some help with these things and discovered MaddenOnline.US, I felt relieved that others sought to gather and rally for many of the same reasons as I did. I was dismayed though by the blatant focus on pointing fingers at EA and opponents because this approach would NEVER help me reach my strategic objectives.

I searched far and wide for a website that encouraged strategic growth while discouraging gimmicks for gimmicks sake. I'm an X's and O's fanatic who eats, sleeps, and drinks the NFL. Unfortunately, I found ZERO. So I started my own site called MaddenUniversity.com for people who want to become better Madden players using real football tactics.

What I realized through my journey since my epiphany in the Madden '03 year was: I wasn't good enough at my understanding of football (even after having watched and played football since the '70s). So I sought to rectify my strategic knowledge weaknesses by consulting the only sources I knew would have good football information: NFL COACHES.

I started reading books written how to execute a West Coast offense, playing defense, and special teams and applied that to my Madden repertoire. I'm also pleased to announce that everything I tried worked EXACTLY like the coaches in the books I'd read said it should for the same reasons...

Needless to say, it's hard to say real coaches with real football concepts are off base when I've had 100% success implementing their systems for more than 9 years. It's far easier to say the members of a community that is filled with players who don't even average 1 strategy thread a month are off base...

Quote: Originally Posted by mikenever

It's pointless to throw ideas around. EA has struggled with the basics on this game for so long, that things like features are pointless to discuss. EA doesn't improve the game in certain areas because they haven't had to...which pretty much makes such discussion a pointless exercise.

mikenever,

EA isn't struggling with the basics of Madden, but some players do. Case in point, there are still MANY members of OS that still believe the QB only throws in the direction a receiver is running when the ball is thrown. Then they broadcast that "Routes Don't Matter" in forums with the least posts in the strategy section. Needless to say, timing passes thrown to the route have been on Madden since "Touch Passing" was added on Madden '98.

That said, as an avid player of Madden it's really tough to rely on people who obviously don't play the game with enough fervor to know what's in it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

So you don't care about any of the additions to Madden 12? If not, then you're probably never going to be happy with the game. Yes, there are some fundamental problems with the gameplay, but that does not prevent, for example, franchise mode from being the best mode it can be. I just don't understand your mindset. Even if the game is flawed, it can still be improved in many ways. Why is it pointless to try to improve the game?

What he may have meant to say is that he would rather be playing a different NFL game. Perhaps 2K?

But Madden has a feel that it's customer base has come to expect. Players that do not enjoy that feel think it's pointless for EA to improve the game because they see a move toward their favorite game as the only viable 'improvement.' Typically guys that have this opinion are more likely to have liked Madden 06-08 because of the direction it was heading, while lifelong Madden players HATED those versions because the Madden feel wasn't there...

Meanwhile, the game has steadily improved on NG similarly to how it improved on PS2. Each game has been better than the previous version on the same system. Or better stated, Madden has improved - but opinions have not.

Quote: Originally Posted by TombSong

The problem with this type oaf assessment is: A. You are assuming everyone plays Madden for the franchise mode. B. People who DO play the franchise mode, I think would like the actual games PLAYED(on the field) in franchise mode to be bug free, cheat free, glitch free games. If every year the core game play is not fixed then I think one can reasonably expect there will be complaining about it. You started a thread on why people aren't focused on improvement in the face of the fact there have been MANY posts about improving the game. With that in mind, How many improvements has EA brought to this gen madden that were not already in the last gen games ? How have they advanced this genre in any aspect of it despite all the posts of ideas on how to improve the game ? They are just now catching up to 2008. You do realize AP2K8 had custom playbooks. Still has better animations, tackling, man coverage, zone coverage, Formation audibles, you can send multiple men in motion, players attributes are better , easier to adjust hot routes, defensive coverage shells, O'line double teams, Dline calls can be made independent of the play called. A better challenge system, better replay system. In the face of all that how can you wonder why there are so many people upset ?

I may get a warning about this because it will be unpopular, but I think we are misunderstanding Madden's CORE. Madden built it's reputation for responsive game play, strategic depth, and football sophistication. Not to mention it was hella fun to play 1v1. Franchise, which didn't appear til the series was 10 years old. It only seems core because the series is in it's 20's and many of the players don't remember playing when there was NO FRANCHISE.

Lastly... regarding 2K. Don't get me wrong, 2K looks stunning and may be a joy to play, but Madden players don't care. Being great at 2K will NOT translate to greatness in Madden, but it seems many people believe it should. Alas... Madden haters often point to 2K because that's the game they really want to play.

Later