If other games were scrutinized like Madden.......

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

I see this thrown around a lot, but where's the reasoning behind this? What makes you think those are things we should have had? What is your basis of comparison?

How about what we had on the PC and the previous console, and the HUGE STEP BACKWARDS Madden took going to the current console. They've been ADDING FEATURES THAT ALREADY EXISTED IN PREVIOUS GAMES, while they should have been adding new features.

Don't take that HUGE STEP BACKWARDS, and you don't have to bring your product up to where it was, and you can/could have spent that time enhancing the game more.

I'm not sure why you don't understand the reasoning or the comparison.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by bkrich83

I'd love to have that. But we SHOULD have that based on what?

Based on where the game was pre this console and how they removed everything and started this gen with a bare bones game. They went BACKWARDS to just start adding features that already existed in the game. Time they should have given to adding and enhancing, instead of reintroducing.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

They have been SLOWLY adding things back and are STILL behind in areas. That's a step backwards. So they've been moving forward from 06 and still behind the PC and precious console. And why should that be so impressive. Really, Madden 12 should have been Madden 07. And we should be much farther in 12 than we are.

I agree from a sim standpoint, but I feel there are millions of people who disagree with us because they are having fun with it and feel it's improved beyond a little each year. To them, it's steps forwards, not steps backwards as we think.

I look specifically at my nephews and cousins and they tell me I'm too serious, I'm off my rocker. They just want to fire they game up, pick their favorite teams and get online with their buddies.

And there is nothing wrong with the way they play, either, just like there is nothing wrong with how I play the game.

[GiantBlue76]

Sports games are all scrutinized the most. ALL sports games. Also, in my opinion, exclusive licenses are horrid for all games. I stopped playing baseball games long ago. Completely stopped. I thought MVP was absolutely fantastic. I LOVED that game. I started playing EA baseball back when I was in HS on the sega genesis. I believe it was triple play, then tony la russa or whatever. I'm a fan of 2k's football and basketball games, but their hockey and baseball games have not lived up to standards set by other games. The difference there is that there are other options. Yes, you need a PS3 to play the show, but at least there is SOMETHING you can do.

Also, my beef with this madden dev team hasn't necessarily been what's NOT in the game (although that list has gotten extensive over the last 6 years). It's really what's in the game that works like crap. There are a lot of bugs that are basic. Things like awarding the ball to the wrong team on fumbles, not being able to challenge a play, problems with the fatigue system, the inability to properly tackle due to pro tak and other such messes, the ability to cut on a dime so that you have to instill rules in your league on when you can use the left stick, pass interference penalties (actually, all of the penalties are pretty poorly implemented), the list is endless. It's been confirmed that the answer some of the gameplay guys have had to a lot of the flaws is what really disturbs me the most. "Yes, we know we could make this a lot more realistic, but it's more "fun" this way". This, IMHO, is the core issue with Madden and it's team of developers over the last several years. They are trying to make Madden the "jack of all trades" for everyone. Instead, you get the proverbial "master of none". There is nothing that Madden does exceptionally well at all, and there are also a lot of things missing. Combine those two together and you have a very unhappy customer base. Then add in the things they want to charge you for along with the 60.00 price tag and you have to start asking yourself, what am I doing here?

This is not to say Madden is a bad game. Hell, I really enjoy playing in my online league, and admittedly, that's the only reason I buy the game. I personally enjoy the football aspects of APF2k8 FAR more than Madden. I feel it represents the real life game much better. Just my opinion, but online franchise is something I really enjoy. I also think the gameplay is "decent". There are still the same madden-isms that pop up, but what can you do? The exclusive license is not ever being lifted. There won't be another game. You voice your opinion and try to make the game better and hope for the best.

As far as getting scrutinized, any game that has exclusive rights is going to get the wrath that comes with it. If EA did not expect it, they are not very smart. In sports gaming, football is king. It's our most popular sport and it's the most coveted to play in our living rooms. I don't have time anymore to play many games. I only play football now. I stopped purchasing NBA 2k also because I don't have the time to play. However, when you play a game like NBA 2k, or MLB the show, and then you try to play a game like Madden 11, it's a HUGE drop off. HUGE. The answer is simple. If you don't want to get the intense scrutiny, make a better game. Be the one pushing the envelope instead of the one who is always 2 years late to the party. All of Madden's technology is either copied or old. Even the whole "locomotion" debacle. They added that but it came from FIFA. It's evident that the investment in Madden has not been there and it has shown in the final product.

It's not too late to turn things around, however. If a commitment is made to really hit the realism mark, and really try to push the realism level to the same heights that the Show and NBA 2k have done, then the perception of Madden can be turned around. Time will tell, but the track record has not been so good.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I agree from a sim standpoint, but I feel there are millions of people who disagree with us because they are having fun with it and feel it's improved beyond a little each year. To them, it's steps forwards, not steps backwards as we think. I look specifically at my nephews and cousins and they tell me I'm too serious, I'm off my rocker. They just want to fire they game up, pick their favorite teams and get online with their buddies. And there is nothing wrong with the way they play, either, just like there is nothing wrong with how I play the game.

It may have improved each year from the first installment of this gen, but when compared to what the game had prev to this gen, it went backwards and is still trying to catch up. It can be in areas in the game that some don't use, but the fact that it went backwards and is still trying to catch up is indisputable.

Where has offline franchise been? And still, where is online franchise.

[mrprice33]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

It may have improved each year from the first installment of this gen, but when compared to what the game had prev to this gen, it went backwards and is still trying to catch up. It can be in areas in the game that some don't use, but the fact that it went backwards and is still trying to catch up is indisputable. Where has offline franchise been? And still, where is online franchise.

I take it you were a huge critic of APF, then.

To me I look at them like 2 separate games. Like I said in an earlier post, the show and NBA 2k were the only games that really have advanced from where they were on previous gen without many growing pains. But they sacrificed gameplay and graphics on those earlier games for features. The madden team had the right idea IMO in building the game from the ground up, but they mishandled those first 3 versions of the game (thanks Ortiz!). I feel like we're about 2-3 years behind, but I don't feel like that's uncommon.

And also, are you judging based on feature set or gameplay? To me the gameplay in next gen post 09 has exceeded anything madden did on ps2 era consoles.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

I take it you were a huge critic of APF, then.

And why would this be true. I never owned a 2K football game. Why would that matter?

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

To me I look at them like 2 separate games. Like I said in an earlier post, the show and NBA 2k were the only games that really have advanced from where they were on previous gen without many growing pains. But they sacrificed gameplay and graphics on those earlier games for features.

And? The NBA2K PC game I got in 09 was great, including visually. Where has Madden been?

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

The madden team had the right idea IMO in building the game from the ground up, but they mishandled those first 3 versions of the game (thanks Ortiz!).

We can disagree on whether it was a good decision or not. And for whatever reasons you give for the state Madden has been in (bad decisions by Ortiz or not), it doesn't change where it's been or where it is at. The criticism is justified.

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

I feel like we're about 2-3 years behind, but I don't feel like that's uncommon.

Again, we can disagree on just how far behind. I believe it most definitely is more than 2 or 3 years.

Quote: Originally Posted by mrprice33

And also, are you judging based on feature set or gameplay? To me the gameplay in next gen post 09 has exceeded anything madden did on ps2 era consoles.

Both. It went backwards with both starting this gen. They still are not caught up with feature set. Makes them much farther than 2 or 3 years behind.

[BestServedCold]

Quote: Originally Posted by bkrich83

Which ones? Because I don't see that at all.

As you can see from the table below, it doesn't seem as if Madden is viewed as harshly by its critics as other games (notably Fallout New Vegas).

KEY:
FS= Fan Score (the average person's quick review)
RS= Reader Score (the critics more in-depth review)
DIF= Difference

Stats -
Game	FS	RS	DIF	Final Fantasy	8	7	-1
Dirt 3	9	6	-3
Mortal Kombat	8.8	8.4	-0.4
Call of Duty	7.8	7.3	-0.5
Demon's Souls	8.8	8.3	-0.5
LA Noire	8.2	7.6	-0.6
Gran Turismo	8.6	8.3	-0.3
Catherine	8.7	8	-0.7
Marvel vs. Capcom	8	7.4	-0.6
Fallout New Vegas	8.1	5.8	-2.3
Portal 2	9	9.4	0.4
Madden 11	7.6	7.3	-0.3
MLB 11: The Show	8.9	8	-0.9
NBA 2k11	8.6	6	-2.6
AVERAGE	8.4	7.5	-0.9