What is considered cheesing?

[at23steelers]

@TNT: Your passion shows in your posts. You should try to be on the Madden team!!

[Hiro1]

Cheesing is a videogame term. Madden = video game. The word cheesing is uhh kinda relevant.

My definition of Cheese : Any strategy a player uses that is powerful and requires little to no skill.

Essentially when ever someone turns a football game from chess to checkers. We're not talking about an opponent attacking the deep middle or hook zones in a cover 2 because the defense doesn't change its playcalling. We're talking about a player mindlessly calling the same play or two out of 1 formation the entire game regardless of defensive calls.

After running the same route over & over usually the A.I DB will jump the route. If this happened w/ the entire defense after calling the same running play over & over we would not be having this conversation.

The real problem is WR/DB interaction, after the jamming @ the LOS wr/dbs Lb/TE/RBs do not interact together until a catch is in the process of being made.

[Smoke6]

This is how it works with me...

This is a "FOOTBALL GAME", it "represents football", why cant I call a player a cheeser or cheater, when everything I am doing in my SIM abilities cannot stop, contain, or counter his activities?

Ex: I just played a guy a few moments ago and all he did was motion his WR and j=hiked the ball as soon as he got in between the center and tackles and gained an easy 4-5 yds a carry because of this. No matter what I did, nothing worked!

When I finally got him to end up fumbling, he resorted to motioning his HB out of the back field toward the sidelines and I would have a man on him but he would be trailing and he would then throw a quik pass to the flats for an instant 10. He had a counter play for my counter plays against these exploits as he did this play and its very hard to get someone over there when you are defending against another one of there exploits out of the same formation.

You Following me?

On defense he did that "manual shake glitch" in which i ended up torching him to take the lead, but it wasnt good enough against the pounding of the same run play over and over and over as he just chewed clock and gets near the endzone and throws that undefendable fade pass for easy 6's. His other passing play came out of snugs 4wr sets and he would either throw to either side of the field and it was the same play and route each and everytime.

I mean, what more do you want from us man, I play with my true to life team and unlike most guys online I dont have to feel like I "have to win every game" when im online. And rocket catching and jetpacking are 2 different glitches and you know it...

Jetpacking= WR catches a deep thrown ball that should have been incompleted due to it being overthrown by a mile, but yet the WR get human controlled and speed bursts to be perfectly underneath the pass and catch it in stride and its to the house.

Rocket catching is catching a pass that is very undefendable this year as opposed to last years madden. balls trajectory shows up on screen as being 5-15yds in front of the intended WR, who then stops on a dime and makes the perfect catch.

Picture this, I am Bret farve, and when the second the ball is hiked, I have chucked in the hair for as deep as I can throw, 50-65yds deep, my WR just broke free from his bump n run coverage and still makes the play on the deep ball leaving the safety and whoever else was already deep behind them!

Please correct me if I am wrong here, because as it stands, the cheesers are a lot better to deal with than the glitchers are!

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Hiro1

Cheesing is a videogame term. Madden = video game. The word cheesing is uhh kinda relevant. My definition of Cheese : Any strategy a player uses that is powerful and requires little to no skill. Essentially when ever someone turns a football game from chess to checkers. We're not talking about an opponent attacking the deep middle or hook zones in a cover 2 because the defense doesn't change its playcalling. We're talking about a player mindlessly calling the same play or two out of 1 formation the entire game regardless of defensive calls. After running the same route over & over usually the A.I DB will jump the route. If this happened w/ the entire defense after calling the same running play over & over we would not be having this conversation. The real problem is WR/DB interaction, after the jamming @ the LOS wr/dbs Lb/TE/RBs do not interact together until a catch is in the process of being made.

Hiro,

Good points. I agree with the portions about cheese being a video game term and it's relevance to Madden. I also agree in part with your definition of cheese. It's probably the best explanation I've ever read anywhere.

BUT (you knew it was coming).

What about the players that actually have no skill?

Follow me on this... I've been playing Madden for 20 years. For the first two years, I played exclusively head to head games in college and didn't win a game. NOT ONE. I was the dorm whipping boy. I had no skill.

Madden 93 comes out. I'm back home in Raleigh and I meet someone that has never played Madden before (Lets call him D). I get my first win. By this time I have two years of experience and Split Backs - FB Post. D was my whipping boy. D had no skill.

Years later, I introduce my nephew (we'll call him B) to Madden when I give him Madden '03. When we play, I crush him because I have about 10 years of skill and experience with the game. He is a whipping boy. He has no skill.

So is it 'cheese' if these people that begin with no skill and begin building their skill set based on the few plays they can run successfully?

I found success with the FB post because I was particularly good at reading middle coverages. D found success with streaks because he couldn't read run blocks well. B found success with the Split Backs HB Power because he was unfamiliar with football, the buttons, or reading defenses.

That's how it starts. We find success with a play and keep running it. Once we are no longer having success, we must make a decision of whether we will continue to run the play we can execute successfully under a variety of situations - or try something else...

Where we disagree 'cheese' is how the term has been liberally applied to most every football strategy since Madden went online.

It's not 'cheese' when someone is involving us in their learning process. People do things that indicate they have no skill when they have no skill. A vast majority of the Madden world, dare I say, has no skill. Those we call 'cheesers' are typically brand spanking new to the game.

Think of it this way... Imagine this is your first time ever picking up Madden. You've played football all your life, coached, are intimately familiar with X's and O's, the history of the game, etc... YOU WILL LOSE.

Some may say this is a perfect example of how football knowledge doesn't matter in Madden. But there is a difference that must be overcome before a knowledgeable football fan can become a good Madden player.

First, he must 'learn the verbiage.' Imagine you're a 10 year veteran QB of an NFL team and you have a new head coach and offensive coordinator who use a system that you've never used before... You have to learn how they will communicate, what each assignment does, and the inner workings of their offensive schemes so you won't look silly at game time.

It's the same in Madden. You can't yell out instructions in English, Spanish, French, or Swahili for that matter. You have to learn a language called "MADDEN CONTROLLER." Those fluent in Madden Controller, even if they are unskilled in one area can find success in another.

But that's not 'cheese' - that's the developmental process taking hold.

The problem I have with using 'cheese' to describe what could just as easily be described in football terms is the indication that it gives impressionable minds. The first conclusion people reach when their strategy is bad is that they have been 'cheesed,' the AI is faulty, their opponent cheated, or EA is lazy, etc... That isn't responsible and stunts the growth of the people 'cheesing' and being 'cheesed'.

The reason I started my website in 2003 is because I looked for strategic support online for a full year and found what I viewed as more excuses than support. After seeing the crazy lengths people went through to shield themselves from what they viewed as cheese - I needed someone to stand up for mental toughness and competitive drive. And I couldn't find anyone else that would do it. So I stepped up.

That said... I agree that 'cheese' is relevant to Madden by the nature of it being a video game. But I prefer that football strategies be talked about as football strategies. If the QB drops back 20 yards, we shouldn't call it cheese. We should call it a 20 yard drop back.

I try to always put 'cheese' in quotations to imply that it doesn't belong in a football conversation. I also find every opportunity to rebuke the use of the term that has continued to stunt the growth of so many for almost a decade.

In the meantime... If my opponents try to 'cheese' me, I simply fulfill my duty as an opponent and force them to do something else.

Later

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Smoke6

This is how it works with me... This is a "FOOTBALL GAME", it "represents football", why cant I call a player a cheeser or cheater, when everything I am doing in my SIM abilities cannot stop, contain, or counter his activities?

This is the issue... I don't want the cheese line to be based on your ability to simulate the NFL. I don't want the line to be drawn based on my abilities either. But either of these would be better than allowing every fool with a pulse and a game console to make individual judgements. I'm more in favor of EXPANDING our SIM abilities. I don't believe using 'cheese' as a football description suits the expansion of knowledge.

In response to your running in the middle issue... Do you really believe that the WR motioned from the flanks was the reason you were giving up so many yards in the middle?

I don't. I'm sure he could have achieved the same results from a number of formation/motion combinations with TE, WR, and RB.

Without knowing exactly what you consider SIM, I believe that in your pursuit to be SIM, you may have handcuffed yourself strategically. I also believe you can step outside of the mental bounds you've placed on yourself and still be as SIM a player as you ever have been.

Herm said it best - YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME

When what you're doing isn't enough - don't call your opponent names and berate his strategy. DO MORE. Expand your SIM abilities.

Later

[TWOSILK]

Two things, first off cheesy gameplay normally means doing the same thing over and over because it works too well, i.e. the strong I close toss from a couple of years ago. or snugs with crossing routes last year. the reason why is because when we go into the playcall screen we know that it will take a herculan effort from out opponent to stop this, and secondly I think we have to look at the difference between, "cheesy" and just annoying, I play ultimate team a lot and there are some annoying playstyles in that mode for sure, but not really cheesy, sometimes we do have to look at ourselves and find if the issue is within us for wanting everyone to play like us, or is it really cheesy??

[TWOSILK]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This is the issue... I don't want the cheese line to be based on your ability to simulate the NFL. I don't want the line to be drawn based on my abilities either. But either of these would be better than allowing every fool with a pulse and a game console to make individual judgements. I'm more in favor of EXPANDING our SIM abilities. I don't believe using 'cheese' as a football description suits the expansion of knowledge. In response to your running in the middle issue... Do you really believe that the WR motioned from the flanks was the reason you were giving up so many yards in the middle? I don't. I'm sure he could have achieved the same results from a number of formation/motion combinations with TE, WR, and RB. Without knowing exactly what you consider SIM, I believe that in your pursuit to be SIM, you may have handcuffed yourself strategically. I also believe you can step outside of the mental bounds you've placed on yourself and still be as SIM a player as you ever have been. Herm said it best - YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME When what you're doing isn't enough - don't call your opponent names and berate his strategy. DO MORE. Expand your SIM abilities. Later

No, I think you are wrong, the reason why this is considered cheap is that by putting a WR in motion you are not creating a way that he is now able to block a LB or even a DT where as in real life he would get destroyed trying this, how many times have you seen Calvin Johnson motioned into the middle of the line and block a LB ????

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

Two things, first off cheesy gameplay normally means doing the same thing over and over because it works too well, i.e. the strong I close toss from a couple of years ago. or snugs with crossing routes last year. the reason why is because when we go into the playcall screen we know that it will take a herculan effort from out opponent to stop this, and secondly I think we have to look at the difference between, "cheesy" and just annoying, I play ultimate team a lot and there are some annoying playstyles in that mode for sure, but not really cheesy, sometimes we do have to look at ourselves and find if the issue is within us for wanting everyone to play like us, or is it really cheesy??

You've added a good point to the idea of what cheese... Something that works too well and requiring a Herculean effort to overcome.

But what is a Herculean effort?

Back in Madden 03, some considered it Herculean to use any defense except Man Under 2 or Cover 2 zones. Some feel that adjusting the play at the line of scrimmage is Herculean. Some say that switching to make the play is too much to do. Knowing the assignments of all 11 defenders for every play in the playbook might also be considered a Herculean effort.

So let me ask you... If I told you you can win a game if you give a Herculean effort, would you say that it was too much?

If I told you you would lose unless you gave a Herculean effort, would you still play the game?

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

No, I think you are wrong, the reason why this is considered cheap is that by putting a WR in motion you are not creating a way that he is now able to block a LB or even a DT where as in real life he would get destroyed trying this, how many times have you seen Calvin Johnson motioned into the middle of the line and block a LB ????

I haven't seen Calvin Johnson do it. But that doesn't mean I haven't seen it.

The Buffalo Bills K-Gun in the 90's used to motion Don BeeBee to block on run plays in the middle. I don't recall seeing Beebee get blown up by defensive ends or linebackers (but we didn't get every Bills game in NC).

Now that I watch every snap of every NFL game... I'll keep watch on how often receivers block between the tackles.

Later