What is considered cheesing?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

... BigFNDeal, "Proper" risk reward isn't the best judge of whether a football tactic is cheese because it's subjective. It lets players who know the least make decisions about what's "proper." Add the term 'cheese' and Billy the Fool's assertion is acceptable to everyone at biblical truth. That's not how it should be. If a player, let's call him "Billy the Fool", thinks that his Quarters 3 Deep is supposed to stop a Goal Line DB Dive, he might say his opponent cheesed him. All the while, his own strategy was really the cause of his problems. BUT... about 90% of the 'cheese' threads I've read in the last 9 years don't contain enough information to make a determination as to whether the risk/reward is 'proper.' Also, It's my sincere belief that every NFL legal strategy in Madden has a counter. Several actually. Just because Billy the Fool believes he must commit 4 players to defend a play something he considers cheese does not mean that his counter is the only one, nor that his inability to find another way means the game is faulty. Maybe Billy isn't as smart or competitive as we think he is.... Later

What is subjective, "cheese" or "proper" risk/reward? I disagree that either is. If a tactic in the game does not have real life risk/reward represented, it is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows people to counter comeback routes by jamming receivers so when they run by the defender he is now in defacto underneath coverage but actually choosing "Man under" coverage from the playcall does NOT counter it, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows people to come out in 4WR 1RB set and if the defense counters with Dime, the offense audibles into an I formation with WR's succesfully occupying FB and TE blocking positions, requiring the defense to audible into 4-3/4-6/Goal Line defense with DB's successfully occupying LB positions, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows AI offensive/defensive players that should already be hustling at top speed on a deep pass release, to suddenly "speed burst" when User controlled, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic.

TNT, the list goes on and it's not exclusive to Madden but exists in most sports games, in different degrees. Most people don't claim that football competition is not present in Madden because it most certainly is. I often prefer to play a random game versus a OS community game because I don't want my opponent handcuffed by outside restrictions. However, Madden certainly lacks adequate NFL risk/reward parameters inside the game to simulate NFL football competition.

Madden football tactics being loosely based on NFL football tactics is no different then NFL Street. I am not stating NFL Street and Madden play the same game of football but that both contain "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic tactics when compared to NFL football.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

What is subjective, "cheese" or "proper" risk/reward? I disagree that either is. If a tactic in the game does not have real life risk/reward represented, it is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows people to counter comeback routes by jamming receivers so when they run by the defender he is now in defacto underneath coverage but actually choosing "Man under" coverage from the playcall does NOT counter it, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows people to come out in 4WR 1RB set and if the defense counters with Dime, the offense audibles into an I formation with WR's succesfully occupying FB and TE blocking positions, requiring the defense to audible into 4-3/4-6/Goal Line defense with DB's successfully occupying LB positions, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. When the game allows AI offensive/defensive players that should already be hustling at top speed on a deep pass release, to suddenly "speed burst" when User controlled, that is "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic. TNT, the list goes on and it's not exclusive to Madden but exists in most sports games, in different degrees. Most people don't claim that football competition is not present in Madden because it most certainly is. I often prefer to play a random game versus a OS community game because I don't want my opponent handcuffed by outside restrictions. However, Madden certainly lacks adequate NFL risk/reward parameters inside the game to simulate NFL football competition. Madden football tactics being loosely based on NFL football tactics is no different then NFL Street. I am not stating NFL Street and Madden play the same game of football but that both contain "cheese", non-sim, unrealistic tactics when compared to NFL football.

BigFNDeal,

Once again, well stated. But having had this discussion hundreds of times already, I was prepared for this contingency.

We only have a theory of whether the risk/reward is proper until we see someone in the NFL use the same strategy.

Take the A11 offense. Apparently the A11 offense is so successful in the few high school football programs that run it, that it got a shot in the NFL.Used in the NFL only once by the Steve Spurrier coached Washington Redskins on a 4th down play. The team they were playing (can't remember Skins fans help me out) called a timeout when they saw the offensive tackles lined up outside the numbers. The Skins came out in the same look, snapped the ball and looked like they only ran the play once in practice. TREMENDOUS FAILURE.

But does that one instance mean the A11 will never work? Doubtful. Does it mean it may take 20 years before someone tries it again? Probably.

Makes me wonder how successful the first I-Form play was. It must have worked well enough for them to run it again.

Now let's take Madden - an NFL simulator (regardless of our opinions of the quality of the simulation) that last year simulated over 100,000,000 games. More games than have ever been played in real life, giving more people than ever the ability to make decisions. The strategy on Madden may simply be years ahead.

Follow me: Is it odd to imagine that someone has done something successfully in a Madden game that has never been done in real life?

No. We've lived through it already. Brandon Stokely running across the field to run precious seconds off the clock before scoring. Brian Westbrook forfeits points on break away run by going down inside the five to keep possession and the clock running. Both oft used Madden tactics that, until then, had never been seen in an NFL game.

Oddly, even when a tactic works successfully in a real NFL game it still may not be SIM in Madden. Champ Bailey starts his first career game for the Broncos at HB and CB. Bill Belichek goes for it on 4th and 6 inside his own 35. Indianapolis Colts run no-huddle after an incomplete pass. Dallas Cowboys go Nickel at the goal line against a heavy Buffalo Bills set in a Super Bowl. Brian Moorman runs a fake punt.

Do these things in a Madden game versus a person that hasn't seen these things - and it's cheese. Do it against someone who remembers them from real NFL games and it's SIM. How much more subjective can 'cheese' be?

Do I have to see something in order for it to be SIM? Can you still be SIM if you take what you know about football and create something on Madden that has never been tried in a real game?

With that, is it so hard to imagine that some of the things that are successful in Madden might be successful in real life? Would you be amazed to know that at least one Super Bowl winning former head coach tested his plays in Madden?

I never saw any footage of the Single Wing offense before the Atlanta Falcons used it when Mike Vick was still there (was Dan Reeves coaching?). I had only read about it. When the Carolina Panthers returned the favor and ran the Single Wing the very next week against the Falcons - I almost flipped. They had practiced running it, but not defending it. When the Dolphins ran the Double Wing from the 1920's and beat the Pats, we all thought we were looking at something new. I recognized it immediately when I saw it and sat there amazed as they ran this 90 year old offense with EASE.

Is it odd to think that there may be other strategies used over the course of the NFL's history that 1) I haven't seen and 2) work in Madden?

Not really.

So when we say 'cheese' on the basis of what WOULD work - dare I say no one knows what would work in the NFL. Half the stuff they run in the NFL doesn't work. NFL coaches play it safer than any other level of football. Are we supposed to base our judgments of what will work in the NFL on the coaches with the least to gain by tinkering?

I challenge you and everyone else reading this thread - KEEP WATCH. Look at how many things actually happen in an NFL game but 'cheesy' when the exact same thing happens in Madden.

Dare I say, it seems something happens every week in the NFL that someone says wouldn't work. Only because our risk/reward values are skewed by people who are coaching/playing for their jobs. Until that type of pressure exists in Madden, players are free to tinker where NFL coaches cannot.

Indeed... I expect to see something this week that works well in Madden but hasn't been done before in an NFL game.

Later

[TNT713]

Quote:

Oddly, even when a tactic works successfully in a real NFL game it still may not be SIM in Madden. Champ Bailey starts his first career game for the Broncos at HB and CB. Bill Belichek goes for it on 4th and 6 inside his own 35. Indianapolis Colts run no-huddle after an incomplete pass. Dallas Cowboys go Nickel at the goal line against a heavy Buffalo Bills set in a Super Bowl. Brian Moorman runs a fake punt.

I'm a victim of my own editing... LOL

I meant to have a paragraph that talked about having more success with these tactics being based on the quality of your opponent - instead of implying that these tactics were successful.

Later

[Champion8877]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Champion, I believe you are confusing what people do to have success with the concept of cheese. Most of the things you listed aren't cheese. They are simply strategy. Running verticles for example, isn't cheese if you do it once. It's not cheese if you do it twenty times. If your strategy is ready for any of the things you listed, they don't seem cheesy because they are fruitless. When you understand that many people of varied skill levels play this game, and how they develop, you'll realize that many have a small set of plays they can run successfully. Not because they are attacking the AI, but because they aren't able to get production out of any other plays. If you play a guy that only knows how to run 3 plays well, he's only going to run 3 plays. It's our job, assuming we don't like people with a 3 play repertoire, to force them to get out of their comfort zone in order to have success with something else. We can only accomplish this with a good football strategy of our own. Later

you seem to have missed what i said at the begining of my first post. i said that some of the things i listed are cheese, and some are just annoying to play against. like the QB sneak for 10 yards is cheese. but i also listed things like 4 verts every play, and although that is not cheese, it is in fact very annoying to play against, which is what i said.

[Smoke6]

See, the thing is TNT, that when its done in the NFL, its not done in an exploitful manner!!!

For instance, what team hikes the ball with the WR motioning into the A or B gaps for extra blocking protection? In this day and age so me a team willing to take that risk of there QB getting jammed up and hurt or there best WR who most WR can barely block the defender in front of them anyway!

How many times do you actually see dime defense stop the run, or we're getting our butts kicked in this 1-5-5 defense but hey lets keep running it!

You got guys beating people out of 1 defensive play and formation all day and the same goes on the offensive side of the ball no matter what you do!

Can your philosophy explain that?

How is the QB accurately handing the ball off to the HB with a wr present?

Why is it that people are moving defender off the LOS and still have there guys make plays for losses against 5 o-linemen?

The risk reward issue is a great one, when we play the game properly we get shafted!

I'm so sick and tired of the cheaters getting away with clean cut cheating and benefitting off of it like nobodies business. I used to play over at GB, and ow that site as become a heck of a mess filled with people disputing every game they lose and even with proof of your win, you still get the loss.

Who wants to continually buy into a product to play against people across the world only to get glitched out and cheesed all game from plays they practice night and day on thats mostly undefendable?

Who still goes to gamestop tournaments anymore? I mean they wouldnt even know a glitch if it smacked them in the face but they are real strict on preventing it from happening.

We have online communities in which one day I hope for it to grow and expand with deeper features as I really tired o playing clowns online to get my madden fix or competing somewhere!

Its not a hard game to play, it can be deep if you want it too be but at the same time, cheap players are ruining the game and do it every year. What EA and these console makers need to do, is charge a premium to change your username or GT more than once as people do that mess soo much its not even funny.

I would love 1 Universal login for each console, that way people will not be able to hide from who they are and what they do. Once you burn your name, then its burned until the next gen or you pay $25 for a new username!