After viewing NBA 2K12...What is stopping Madden???

[TNT713]

Madden - or any football game for that matter - should NEVER be compared to a sports game where all the players perform virtually the same actions. The challenges to programming a game with so many phases of interaction mean that football games should only be compared to other football games.

Think of it this way...

In a Soccer game, practically all the players run and kick (pardon me for not caring enough to know what else soccer players might do). In a basketball game, all the players run, dribble, shoot, pass, and jump. In a baseball game players run, catch, bat, and throw. It's not difficult to program these actions for every player.

The phases of control on soccer and basketball include offense and defense. The phases for a football game are pre-snap (offense and defense), passing, ball carrier, defense in pursuit, defense engaged, and ball in the air... Each has a completely different set of controls - AND - the control phase may change several times during a given play...

Needless to say, there are more collision interactions between players in a football game than any other sport.

In hockey, there is rarely a moment where every player on the field is interacting with another player. Even so, there would be fewer players interacting. In basketball and soccer it's not odd to see a solitary collision, but you'll rarely see all 11 players engaged in 11 different collision incidents. Programming one collision is easy. Programming 11 possibly simultaneous collisions is more difficult.

Add the increased roster size of football teams, the situational nature of the sport, and the number of possible outcomes and football is far and away the most excruciating sport on the planet to program.

This is the only instance in which I like to put Madden and NFL 2K in the same category because they both had to deal with the same challenges. While there may have been several great hockey, soccer, basketball, or baseball titles - no one has ever programmed a perfect football game.

Expecting perfection in football isn't like expecting it for other sports... Other sports are simply EASIER to program.

DO NOT COMPARE FOOTBALL TO OTHER SPORTS... It's like comparing apples to moon rocks.

Later

[malky]

Everyone on this thread is making some valid points, but I don't think it really has to do with the companies themselves, I think it's the people who work on the game, this is the history:

The developers that worked on NFL 2k5(some consider the best game ever) went to Collegehoops 2k (some consider collegehoops2k8 the best game ever) and then when that game went away some of the developers went to NBA2k (and now that game is considered the greatest ever)

[mojo6911]

It doesn't help when key members of the team leave every year. It seems the game changes direction every year with the addition and subtraction of new members and leaders.

[43M]

Quote: Originally Posted by UMhester04

The NFL makes you pay to use their likeness, so yes they do.

All developers have to pay to use likenesses, in sports games or even if it has to do with a comic book character or something else "real". Thats nothing new and not just the NFL.

Im talking about the exclusive license. The NFL doesnt make EA pay out the backside to do that. EA chooses to do that. It benefits both sides, but in the end, EA doesnt HAVE to do it.

[huskerwr38]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Madden - or any football game for that matter - should NEVER be compared to a sports game where all the players perform virtually the same actions. The challenges to programming a game with so many phases of interaction mean that football games should only be compared to other football games. Think of it this way... In a Soccer game, practically all the players run and kick (pardon me for not caring enough to know what else soccer players might do). In a basketball game, all the players run, dribble, shoot, pass, and jump. In a baseball game players run, catch, bat, and throw. It's not difficult to program these actions for every player. The phases of control on soccer and basketball include offense and defense. The phases for a football game are pre-snap (offense and defense), passing, ball carrier, defense in pursuit, defense engaged, and ball in the air... Each has a completely different set of controls - AND - the control phase may change several times during a given play... Needless to say, there are more collision interactions between players in a football game than any other sport. In hockey, there is rarely a moment where every player on the field is interacting with another player. Even so, there would be fewer players interacting. In basketball and soccer it's not odd to see a solitary collision, but you'll rarely see all 11 players engaged in 11 different collision incidents. Programming one collision is easy. Programming 11 possibly simultaneous collisions is more difficult. Add the increased roster size of football teams, the situational nature of the sport, and the number of possible outcomes and football is far and away the most excruciating sport on the planet to program. This is the only instance in which I like to put Madden and NFL 2K in the same category because they both had to deal with the same challenges. While there may have been several great hockey, soccer, basketball, or baseball titles - no one has ever programmed a perfect football game. Expecting perfection in football isn't like expecting it for other sports... Other sports are simply EASIER to program. DO NOT COMPARE FOOTBALL TO OTHER SPORTS... It's like comparing apples to moon rocks. Later

Your post couldn't be more wrong. Making excuses for developers when you don't have any idea what really goes on. So have you programmed a football game? If not, please don't spread your opinion as fact.

Most sports have LOTS of similarities and those sports you just named have TONS of similarities. They each have plays, each individual players have assignments they have to execute, they have to be aware of what is going on around them, etc. There are collisions, player interactions, skills moves, etc. for each of those sports. Hockey is probably most closely related in terms of player interactions and collision...that game has real time physics. FIFA has tons of different skill moves that can be executed. If you look at the details of each sport (in terms of movement and interaction) there aren't a ton of differences.

In each sport you run, jump, change direction, accelerate, decelerate, and Madden is HORRIBLE at each of these with their animation system. However, all the other sports games perform these actions really well and with fluidity. Madden isn't great with their A.I. (i.e. player assignments and awareness), however, the other sports game are above and beyond Madden with their A.I..

Also, we could talk about franchise modes and sports. Lots of similarities there too. Bottom line, YOU CAN COMPARE BASKETBALL, HOCKEY, SOCCER TO FOOTBALL BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE LIKENESS AND SIMILARITIES THAN NOT.

[wheelman990]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Madden - or any football game for that matter - should NEVER be compared to a sports game where all the players perform virtually the same actions. The challenges to programming a game with so many phases of interaction mean that football games should only be compared to other football games. Think of it this way... In a Soccer game, practically all the players run and kick (pardon me for not caring enough to know what else soccer players might do). In a basketball game, all the players run, dribble, shoot, pass, and jump. In a baseball game players run, catch, bat, and throw. It's not difficult to program these actions for every player. The phases of control on soccer and basketball include offense and defense. The phases for a football game are pre-snap (offense and defense), passing, ball carrier, defense in pursuit, defense engaged, and ball in the air... Each has a completely different set of controls - AND - the control phase may change several times during a given play... Needless to say, there are more collision interactions between players in a football game than any other sport. In hockey, there is rarely a moment where every player on the field is interacting with another player. Even so, there would be fewer players interacting. In basketball and soccer it's not odd to see a solitary collision, but you'll rarely see all 11 players engaged in 11 different collision incidents. Programming one collision is easy. Programming 11 possibly simultaneous collisions is more difficult. Add the increased roster size of football teams, the situational nature of the sport, and the number of possible outcomes and football is far and away the most excruciating sport on the planet to program. This is the only instance in which I like to put Madden and NFL 2K in the same category because they both had to deal with the same challenges. While there may have been several great hockey, soccer, basketball, or baseball titles - no one has ever programmed a perfect football game. Expecting perfection in football isn't like expecting it for other sports... Other sports are simply EASIER to program. DO NOT COMPARE FOOTBALL TO OTHER SPORTS... It's like comparing apples to moon rocks. Later

Can we compare it to a 2005 football game? Cause if so, besides graphics, Maddens still EXTREMELY far behind that game too.

[khaliib]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Madden - or any football game for that matter - should NEVER be compared to a sports game where all the players perform virtually the same actions. The challenges to programming a game with so many phases of interaction mean that football games should only be compared to other football games. Expecting perfection in football isn't like expecting it for other sports... Other sports are simply EASIER to program. DO NOT COMPARE FOOTBALL TO OTHER SPORTS... It's like comparing apples to moon rocks. Later

I think some here would say that often times we intellectualize things too much.

They might counter by asking what does programming have to do with Presentation and/or the depth presented in game modes?
(ie cardboard sidelines, entire audio package etc...)

Others might say that this argument can't be made until a full Physics Base game is developed and played on.

Backbreaker came the closest with Euphoria Engine, but it too suffered not so much because of the Programming, but their values used were slightly out of the range for producing realistic interaction.

As far as Football being most complex to program for, I would have to disagree in that currently football games only have interaction between 2 values, players and the ball.

We still have not arrive to the point were these two elements have been programmed to interact with the ground (ie footplanting), thus we still have warping through the ground.

As proof, Hockey interacts players, puck, hockey stick, boards/glass, skates/ice, goal/nets.
Looking at this produced game, the interaction is done good by both developers.

So the Biomechanics is there to program football from.

Ath the end of the day, it just comes down to how much the developer wants to utilize and build upon what's already available for game makers.

[bubba4]

What is stopping Madden? Answer: EA.
Look at what EA is accomplishing with its games. They appear to be in the business of making GOOD games, but not GREAT games. Go down the list of all the games they make, and the list of truly GREAT games is very, very small.

For Madden to be great, EA is going to have to put in the time, money, and effort. But that's not the model they are following. They appear to be performing a balancing act between cost efficiency and basic quality. This is why we get games from them that are good, but not show stopping.

Maybe competition would help. But I don't think EA feels that way. Before they even get back into the basketball gaming arena, they tell us that it will take some time before they'll be able to compete with 2K. Now, does this sound like a company that is trying to push to the max??
Bubba4