Official "CHEESE" in NFL Game thread

[TWOSILK]

done commenting on this because TNT refuses to ever see anything other than his point of view therefore no further need to try to converse about this matter, we all know there are ways to play madden the easy way and ways to play football on madden. nano blitzes happen in the nfl but at the same time the QB in real life has the ability to make a throw, whereas in madden you have no chance to do anything, and regardless of formation if you run a toss sweep 15 times at a nfl caliber defense they will adapt and see it coming, whereas in madden the a.i. acts like it has never seen that play.

[TWOSILK]

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthHoodie

I know everyone complains about nano blitzes, but it happens constantly in the NFL. Best examples are the Ravens and the Saints. Greg Williams (NO DCoord) is an artist when it comes to blitzes thats why i always use his playbook on d

what nfl games have you been watching????????????? i have seen a true nano blitz thru the a gap once or twice, now overloads, or just sending more than you can block is a totally different thing.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Incorrect. We, as Madden players, have control (direct or indirect) of all 11 players on our team. 1) Beginning with the formation, personnel, and play we select in the playcall screen we are telling all 11 men under our control what to do. 2) As we line up, we have the ability to micro-manage all 11 defenders pre-snap even further to tweak or overhaul any play we may have called in the play call screen. 3) After the snap, the control we have already been privy to comes into play because we are only in direct control of one player at a time, however we have the ability to 'possess' other players.

There's only so many adjustments you can do because it's all dependent on the opponent taking long enough to snap the ball before you get them done mechanically.

In fact, they need that not only to stop the play, but so you can trick them off of it the next time. Maybe you have a draw play with that same motion...the DBs are ready to backpedal because they think "pass". The snap and then it looks pass - but oops, quick hit to Felix Jones and the WR/TE are run blocking backpedalling DBs. Could be a big play.

But without the players actually thinking on their own - this doesn't happen. You pretty much lose on the experience either way, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

While the AI, when playing the computer, may not adjust properly - this argument holds no water when there are two humans playing head-to-head. It's up to the USER to duplicate what he knows about football through the three (3) control methods above. If a user uses his football knowledge to adjust his strategy, the AI performs very well in situations where most say the AI fails. If a player does not have enough football knowledge OR doesn't know how to apply it to Madden - he will ultimately blame the AI for his own failures.

Disagree.

The player AI is ALWAYS in effect. You still only control one player at a time. You might be covering the Wally B, but what's the DT doing? Is he reading that this the same play? How about the DE? Is he attacking pass or playing contain because he thinks it's a run? How about the strongside LB? Or the CB on the other side of the field?

On the offensive side, you're the QB and you key on what the defense is doing. You pick out the Mike, you've deciphered the blitz, and you are pretty sure it's a cover 2 zone behind the blitz. You call a hot route that will be it. Cool.

Now...what's the OLine do? Do they pick up their blocks? Can THEY figure out who the Mike is? What blitz package it is? Is the TE aware of the delayed blitzer before he leaks out into his delayed pass route? Does the HB know to pick up inside instead of outside in pass protection? Does the WR you're looking to go to know how to run that route against press cover 2? Does another WR read blitz and cut his route short like a real life WR does? If you have to roll out, do your WR come back to you or keep running 50 yds down field on the other side of the field? Do they know how to exploit the holes in the zones caused by the QBs movement?

The player AI needs help in Madden. User control and skills are one thing and always have an impact, but that shouldn't be an excuse for a rudimentary player AI that doesn't make enough good football decisions.

You say the Users blame AI for lack of football/Madden knowledge. I'm sure that's true in some cases. I think it's also true that the Madden AI is not perfect and does not do all the things real players read and recognize ON THEIR OWN in real life. They don't need someone telling them to do whatever. They see it, the are aware of what's happening, and they react.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

That said, If I run the same successful play over and over against an opponent that runs the same thing over and over, I should expect similar results over and over. Where I break from those who subscribe to 'cheese' as a description of football strategy is in how I deal with players that run the same thing over and over. I CHANGE SOMETHING. In real life, the Wally B wouldn't work every time because the coaches, coordinators, and players will change something. In Madden, guys will keep running the same thing over and over, even when it doesn't work, then blame the AI for their own ineptitude.

Except, in Madden the PLAYERS don't adjust and that's the problem. I might adjust as the coach/coordinator - what do the players do? You just said it that the user has to basically tell all the players what to do. How is that the players adjusting? That's the user god moding and being all the players. That's not "like real life" imo.

Real life-like would be me playing NT and the CB/LB/S figuring it out. Not me being NT, then going to tell CB/LB/S what to do, then going back to NT, all before the snap so I can do MY responsibility on the play as NT.

[/quote]

[striker3771]

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

done commenting on this because TNT refuses to ever see anything other than his point of view therefore no further need to try to converse about this matter, we all know there are ways to play madden the easy way and ways to play football on madden. nano blitzes happen in the nfl but at the same time the QB in real life has the ability to make a throw, whereas in madden you have no chance to do anything, and regardless of formation if you run a toss sweep 15 times at a nfl caliber defense they will adapt and see it coming, whereas in madden the a.i. acts like it has never seen that play.

When someone is obsessed with something they have a serious problem.

[Smoke6]

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthHoodie

I know everyone complains about nano blitzes, but it happens constantly in the NFL. Best examples are the Ravens and the Saints. Greg Williams (NO DCoord) is an artist when it comes to blitzes thats why i always use his playbook on d

Those nano's never happened at will, they are people who do the same set up and everything regardless of down and distance and formation you use. IT STILL WORKS!!!

Talking about no one ever changing anything, is because even when we do use slide protect or power blocking, there gimmicks still work! You can call impatients or whatnot, but these gimmicks are killing the online arena and if it wasnt for online communities, madden online would be a barren wasteland right now except for online franchise mode!

We as gamers do "enable" these guys to keep doing what they're doing as "someone" is still playing guys with records of 299-12 and then come here and complain about it after the fact "you" enabled them to do what they have done to make you complain!

My biggest gripe from all of this is, is that we as a community SIM or whatever you want to call it (how about BS free), takes the "cowards role"! We outnumber "freestyle players" 3 to 1 or maybe by more and yet we hide behind our computer screens and talk that talk, but hardly is anyone ever ready to walk it.

But its one of those scenarios that when something bad happens to them, then they want someone to come forward and speak up, but when the shoe was on the other foot, they just sat back and did nothing!

The integrity of this game is compromised year after year, and even at times when i feel I shouldnt care as much as i do I never give up! I dont believe in cheating people at anything, I felt stuff like that would always come back at a point in your life when things really do count!

I have never in my life ever seen a company condone cheating, even in todays sports, Television stations, and in life in general that cheating is frowned upon. Why is it so generally accepted to freaking cheat in an online game!

How about TNT get off of what madden 2003 did and lets get on with what Madden 12 does and dont do!

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

BigFNDeal, (1) Wouldn't it be better if the user's real intelligence (RI) was adaptive? When I see my opponent using a 3-man defensive line with my guards uncovered, I automatically pull them to clear the way on the outside with tosses, pitches, counters, and power plays. While my opponent continues to call the same fronts, I'm going to run the same pulling guard plays. If he doesn't adapt with a strategy that covers my guards, he's going to get tired of seeing my guards pulling. Of course, in order for him to adapt to my strategy, he's got to be smart enough to figure out why I'm running it. If my opponent possesses football smarts, he'll start covering my guards quickly. If he's less savvy, he may not cover the guards until the 3rd quarter. If he's not savvy at all, he won't ever catch on to why I'm gouging him over and over again. (2) Suppose EA were to develop an AI that was able to handle my pulling guard strategy - but the user kept calling plays that left my guards free to pull. Is it still the AI's fault when that user fails? While I'm cool with the idea of adaptive AI... I'm more concerned about adaptive RI. I want players to have the intelligence they claim the AI does not have. Unfortunately, the grip of 'cheese' on the psyche of players is far stronger than the truth of what's happening. PEOPLE are making bad calls and hoping the AI will do something other than what they told it to do. If I call Man Under 2 100 times, I expect the CPU to run the Man Under 2 100 times. It's not the AI's fault that the Man Under 2 is not the best call to make, it's the user's. Later

1. No because that's putting the cart before the horse. Madden is supposed to be a NFL video game so the the AI should be NFL caliber. That AI should set the parameters for RI success without directly limiting RI decisions. Let people do any and everything they want but the NFL AI should perform within realistic risk/reward parameters.

2. If this were true then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion because that's what I am advocating for across the board. You seem to be describing Madden as a football game where general football tactics can be applied for success and that may be true. The problem is Madden is supposed to be much more specific than that and focused on how tactics work at the NFL level. I am a stone cold Redskins fan and have been since the 80's with The Posse and Hogs. There is a reason why Spurrier wasn't successful using general football tactics at the NFL level, NFL risk/reward. The risk of causing our starting QB Patrick Ramsey, irreversible pocket paranoia from multiple knockdowns and sacks versus the reward of having 6-7 receivers in routes, regulated his tactics. Without these NFL risk/rewards adequately represented in Madden, tactics in the game can't be regulated within NFL parameters and can't be considered NFL realistic.

Not to be political but years ago Donald Rumsfeld said concerning the military not having optimal equipment for the Iraq War, that "you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want". Now Madden is no where near on the level of importance as peoples lives in combat but with either example, this premise is flawed logic. Soldiers that are able to make the most of what they have, to be successful, are without question extraordinarily skilled and deserve credit. However, those soldiers who could have been saved from injury or fatality with the proper equipment were by no means unskilled and inept. In Madden with so many NFL risk/reward elements being poorly represented it makes it unreasonable to question some losing players NFL skill and knowledge, while still making it very reasonable to acknowledge that of some winning players.

You seem to enjoy the football competition that Madden offers and from what you state, you seem very good at it. I think that deserves credit because it is by no means easy to face all manners of Madden tactics and counter them with general football principles. However, until Madden is officially labeled as a Madden football game with NFL branding instead of a NFL football game with Madden branding, people will and should expect the core AI, including penalties/refs, CPU controlled players and User controlled player limitations, to adequately regulate tactics within NFL parameters.

Also, I very surprised that you would mention the "Man under" defense when trying to make a point about expecting the CPU players to do as instructed. "Man under" is a very clear example of having to play Madden with the inadequate AI we have, not the NFL AI we want.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

1. No because that's putting the cart before the horse. Madden is supposed to be a NFL video game so the the AI should be NFL caliber. That AI should set the parameters for RI success without directly limiting RI decisions. Let people do any and everything they want but the NFL AI should perform within realistic risk/reward parameters. 2. If this were true then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion because that's what I am advocating for across the board. You seem to be describing Madden as a football game where general football tactics can be applied for success and that may be true. The problem is Madden is supposed to be much more specific than that and focused on how tactics work at the NFL level. I am a stone cold Redskins fan and have been since the 80's with The Posse and Hogs. There is a reason why Spurrier wasn't successful using general football tactics at the NFL level, NFL risk/reward. The risk of causing our starting QB Patrick Ramsey, irreversible pocket paranoia from multiple knockdowns and sacks versus the reward of having 6-7 receivers in routes, regulated his tactics. Without these NFL risk/rewards adequately represented in Madden, tactics in the game can't be regulated within NFL parameters and can't be considered NFL realistic. [/color]Not to be political but years ago Donald Rumsfeld said concerning the military not having optimal equipment for the Iraq War, that "you go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want". Now Madden is no where near on the level of importance as peoples lives in combat but with either example, this premise is flawed logic. Soldiers that are able to make the most of what they have, to be successful, are without question extraordinarily skilled and deserve credit. However, those soldiers who could have been saved from injury or fatality with the proper equipment were by no means unskilled and inept. In Madden with so many NFL risk/reward elements being poorly represented it makes it unreasonable to question some losing players NFL skill and knowledge, while still making it very reasonable to acknowledge that of some winning players. [color=Black]You seem to enjoy the football competition that Madden offers and from what you state, you seem very good at it. I think that deserves credit because it is by no means easy to face all manners of Madden tactics and counter them with general football principles. However, until Madden is officially labeled as a Madden football game with NFL branding instead of a NFL football game with Madden branding, people will and should expect the core AI, including penalties/refs, CPU controlled players and User controlled player limitations, to adequately regulate tactics within NFL parameters. Also, I very surprised that you would mention the "Man under" defense when trying to make a point about expecting the CPU players to do as instructed. "Man under" is a very clear example of having to play Madden with the inadequate AI we have, not the NFL AI we want.

I don't think it's putting the cart before the horse at all... Here's why:

Think back to when Madden first came out on the Sega Genesis. Madden was designed for players to be responsible for more than any other game had previously allowed. No game had players call defenses before. No game had given players the 'coordinator' experience before.

It was for sophisticated football fans.

But let's be honest... Since then Madden has absorbed more audiences than the sophisticated football fan.

As the fan base becomes more dilute with casual fans who watch games but don't focus on the strategy being employed beyond what they see on the surface, the more EA must cater to their needs. In cases where online play previously had newbies and veterans playing in the same sandbox - it didn't make for very competitive games.

I agree with part of your assessment, but will expand it to say that NFL risk/reward is irrelevant because Madden players cannot get fired or cut when they make bad decisions. If Madden players who were making bad decisions were FIRED or suffered some punative penalty for losing, you'd see a much more accurate reflection of the risk/reward values of the NFL.

A comparable gaming situations is the Seach and Destroy game on Call of Duty. Waiting an entire round to respawn causes players to play the game entirely differently than when they respawn seconds after they die.

If we take a simulation angle... Think about the press conference where the coach comes in and talks about how cheesy and bush league the other team played the game after a loss. Then think of how many press conferences he would have if this was his answer after every loss...

NFL = NOT FOR LONG

We know what would really happen... The press would have a field day. He'd be the lead on ESPN, Mike & Mike would laugh at him and call him a sissy, and he'd be FIRED and replaced.

But Madden players don't have to have press conferences where their every decision is scrutinized. I'd love to see that simulated in Madden.


We can't imagine an offensive coordinator that couldn't block an A-Gap blitz keeping his job for 9 years. But we see people who for 8 years have been unable to stand up to A-gap pressure.

We can't imagine a defensive coordinator that couldn't stop a deep throw, yet, we see Madden players who have had trouble with the deep pass for almost 10 years. If EA continues to let these people buy and play the game, it will destroy the notion of being able to simulate the risk/reward of the NFL.

Later

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Smoke6

How about TNT get off of what madden 2003 did and lets get on with what Madden 12 does and dont do!

Glad you asked...

There are a few things Madden 12 doesn't because of what happened in Madden '03. Wally B is one. One of my favorite defenses, 4-3 Man Flats, is another. Oddly, it was a fantastic counter to the Wally B. Neither is available on Madden NFL 12. In order to manufacture this defense, I must select another play and change pre-snap.

I'm sure there's more. Don't get me to consult my journals... I'll be typing for days.

Later