Combatting "Cheese" Topic

[iamwubbie]

I'm a little annoyed with some of the strategies that people do, but I wanted to see what other users did to combat some of the "cheesing" out there.

My definition of "Cheese:" The constant usage of plays, routes, or various maneuvers that either take advantage of the AI, or require opponents to make huge adjustments, when in real-life it wouldn't be so difficult to defend. Sure, some cheesing is annoying, but if you want to play and not lose every game, then let's figure out how to defend ourselves:

1.) Goal-line QB Sneak: This one is terrible. Pinch the line, and crash downward. This changes the "instant" QB sneak to a dive, where the odds of converting short-yardage considerably lower.

2.) Constant throws down-field to the speed receiver: This one isn't so bad. In real-life, Michael Vick is pretty likely to throw to DeSean Jackson deep. The only reason I think this is cheese is because some people will do this every play. Keep a safety deep, and possibly have a man cover the speed WR.

3.) Rocket-catching: I don't think rocket-catching is too bad either. In real-life, big physical WRs will user their bodies to shield the ball away from defenders. In a goal-line situation, Larry Fitzgerald wins a decently thrown fade pass 9 times out of 10. Thoughts?

4.) Underneath passes: Wes Welker made his career out of constant underneath passes, but in-game, the CPU doesn't seem to defend well. Hook zones (yellow) seem too deep for the computer for those 4, 5 yard passes underneath. Press-coverage is useless if you can't get a pass-rush (which is difficult in this game if you don't nano). Any thoughts on this one? I still need work on my stick skills to cover WRs.

Feel free to add more or help me out with some of my defenses to cheesers (I need help!).

[Shogun613]

I'll comment on #4...

The underneath routes can definitely be a pain in the a$$, I've been a victim many times when I couldn't generate a pass rush. I use a strategy of using a cover 3 based middle blitz early and often, mixed in with some cover 2 and cover 3 base defenses with "show blitz". this luls your opponent into quick throws because he has in his mind that the D is always gonna be coming. If he just throws quick, more times than not it will be picked or batted. If he sees the LB's drop and defend those quick underneath routes, he holds on to the ball longer, possibly rolls out b/c he's getting nervous about staying in the pocket too long, and before you know it, you either have a sack or a forced incompletion.

[GGEden]

fight cheese with cheese

[mjhyankees]

Quote: Originally Posted by iamwubbie

I'm a little annoyed with some of the strategies that people do, but I wanted to see what other users did to combat some of the "cheesing" out there. My definition of "Cheese:" The constant usage of plays, routes, or various maneuvers that either take advantage of the AI, or require opponents to make huge adjustments, when in real-life it wouldn't be so difficult to defend. Sure, some cheesing is annoying, but if you want to play and not lose every game, then let's figure out how to defend ourselves: 1.) Goal-line QB Sneak: This one is terrible. Pinch the line, and crash downward. This changes the "instant" QB sneak to a dive, where the odds of converting short-yardage considerably lower. 2.) Constant throws down-field to the speed receiver: This one isn't so bad. In real-life, Michael Vick is pretty likely to throw to DeSean Jackson deep. The only reason I think this is cheese is because some people will do this every play. Keep a safety deep, and possibly have a man cover the speed WR. 3.) Rocket-catching: I don't think rocket-catching is too bad either. In real-life, big physical WRs will user their bodies to shield the ball away from defenders. In a goal-line situation, Larry Fitzgerald wins a decently thrown fade pass 9 times out of 10. Thoughts? 4.) Underneath passes: Wes Welker made his career out of constant underneath passes, but in-game, the CPU doesn't seem to defend well. Hook zones (yellow) seem too deep for the computer for those 4, 5 yard passes underneath. Press-coverage is useless if you can't get a pass-rush (which is difficult in this game if you don't nano). Any thoughts on this one? I still need work on my stick skills to cover WRs. Feel free to add more or help me out with some of my defenses to cheesers (I need help!).

Generally I don't like any style that isn't played like real life. IRL teams don't always go on 4th down, always throw bombs etc.

Anyway, here are some thoughts I have.
Regarding the deep ball doing these 3 things seem to help alot.
1. Have man coverage with a safety up top for help deep.
2. play bump and run. This at least prevents him from getting out quickly and getting as deep.
3. Blitz - I like using DB's for this or OLB due to there speed is more likely to get a scrambler.
Overall you give him less time to throw, make his wr take longer to get out and essentially double cover him all at the same time.

Underneath throws: Any or all of the following:
1. Mix up coverages.
2. play man to man (unlike real life alot of DB's in Madden cover the crossing pattern well.
3. Play man to man but keep backers in the hook to curl zone. I always control a backer and I'm not above bumping a receiver as he crosses.
4. Again bump and run. It disrupts timing.

[Smoke6]

Rocket catching in this game in nowhere near realistic and to me is quite cheesy as its done at will and caught 90% of the time or more no matter what you do.

What I would love to figure is how to stop those manual safety users who bring everyone in the box and as soon as you hike the ball they bite on the run but are still able to cover deep after being beaten by a mile by the intended wrs as he just runs right by him!

[newjackswing]

Quote: Originally Posted by GGEden

fight cheese with cheese

Thats what I did last night played some fool who kept trying to QB sneak so after a few tries by him. I ran goal line formation for the rest of the gaame. QB sneaked for some big yards mixed a couple of tosses to my rb and won 21-0. After the game I msg him "Cheesers never win" He came back with "get your own plays then" LOL

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by iamwubbie

I'm a little annoyed with some of the strategies that people do, but I wanted to see what other users did to combat some of the "cheesing" out there. My definition of "Cheese:" The constant usage of plays, routes, or various maneuvers that either take advantage of the AI, or require opponents to make huge adjustments, when in real-life it wouldn't be so difficult to defend. Sure, some cheesing is annoying, but if you want to play and not lose every game, then let's figure out how to defend ourselves: 1.) Goal-line QB Sneak: This one is terrible. Pinch the line, and crash downward. This changes the "instant" QB sneak to a dive, where the odds of converting short-yardage considerably lower. 2.) Constant throws down-field to the speed receiver: This one isn't so bad. In real-life, Michael Vick is pretty likely to throw to DeSean Jackson deep. The only reason I think this is cheese is because some people will do this every play. Keep a safety deep, and possibly have a man cover the speed WR. 3.) Rocket-catching: I don't think rocket-catching is too bad either. In real-life, big physical WRs will user their bodies to shield the ball away from defenders. In a goal-line situation, Larry Fitzgerald wins a decently thrown fade pass 9 times out of 10. Thoughts? 4.) Underneath passes: Wes Welker made his career out of constant underneath passes, but in-game, the CPU doesn't seem to defend well. Hook zones (yellow) seem too deep for the computer for those 4, 5 yard passes underneath. Press-coverage is useless if you can't get a pass-rush (which is difficult in this game if you don't nano). Any thoughts on this one? I still need work on my stick skills to cover WRs. Feel free to add more or help me out with some of my defenses to cheesers (I need help!).

I'll start with a reminder about my disdain for using the term "cheese" to describe someone else's brand of football. I prefer to discuss football strategy (even the kooky onese used in Madden) with the same vocabulary that I discuss any other strategy... Thus I count every strategy as equal so long as it is physically possible (even if not probable) AND NFL legal.

Now that I got that out of the way, let's get to the goods:

Quote:

Goal Line QB Sneak:

Against a standard defensive formation the QB stays upright after the snap. Against a goal line formation, he dives to the ground. But you can still stop the sneak from either look, it just takes more adjustments from base formations.

I like to use Goal Line formations in obvious sneak situations when I see Goal Line personnel, but I won't sell out to the QB Sneak until I've seen it run at least once first. After seeing one sneak, I'll stunt the D-Line inside from their normal positions to blitz BOTH A-Gaps. Usually keeps the sneak to a minimal gain.

If I get caught in a base 4-3 formation, I like to shift the D-Line to the inside and stunt them inside. I also like manually control a DT and play him head up over the center. If I can get a push, I can cancel the gap and blow up the sneak. If I can, I'll sub in some fresh legs at DT to get the best chance as generating a push.

Quote:

Constant throws down-field to the speed receiver

I had to learn this early in my Madden days because my best friend loved throwing the bomb and was AMAZING at completing passes on the All Streaks style plays that forced me to cover at least four receivers on vertical routes.

1) Back off. Give them a cushion and force them to beat you on shorter throws.
2) Check your matchups. Players often look at the coverages you run and package their fastest receiver so he's covered by your slowest cover guys. In Nickel 3-3-5 formations, I'm often stuck with a linebacker covering a fast WR - when I see it I use #3.
3) Give them some help. If a player is having trouble, I'll manually help either by playing straight man coverage to double him OR by playing a zone to his side that allows me to attack passes to other receivers as well.
4) RUN THE BALL. I use my rushing offense as a pass defense. Speedy receivers cant hurt you from the bench. If I hold the ball long enough, it puts my opponent in a position where his deep strikes are more predictable and helping me defend them.
5) HEAVY BLITZING. Deep passes take time and sending heavy pressure, preferably from a place that will rattle the current opponent, encroaches on the time opponents need. Make them throw too early and it's usually a recipe for a defensive play.

Quote:

Rocket-catching

ARGHHHH... Hate this term. I prefer jump catches. I defend them by playing a ton of man coverage (RC works best against zones when the opponent knows where the defense won't be) and using the STRIP TACKLE as soon as the receiver makes contact with the ball OR just rock his snot box with a well timed Hit Stick.

IF my tallest corner is on the receiver (it's usually my shortest corner), I'll actually make a play on the ball DEPENDING on the trajectory. It it's high, HIT HIM. It it's on a line, I try to get between the WR and the QB and jump for it. If that doesn't work (it usually does), I'll use a zone to bait the throw AND man coverage to make the window for a completion as small as possible.

That said, I still can't do a thing about Calvin Johnson. Apparently, the NFL has the same problem so I'm not too concerned.

Quote:

Underneath passes

Contain and Spy plays are good for more than just containing ans spying... The Spy assignment plays a short zone in the middle directly across from the QB that is perfect for defending drags.

The contain assignment, is great for defending quick short throws from the middle of the field toward the flats and screen passes.

When combined, the contain and spy plays give you good coverage between the typical windows where zones are most vulnerable. They can be used in conjunction with man or zone coverage for varied effects.

Hope these help,

Later

[iamwubbie]

Quote:

I'll start with a reminder about my disdain for using the term "cheese" to describe someone else's brand of football. I prefer to discuss football strategy (even the kooky onese used in Madden) with the same vocabulary that I discuss any other strategy... Thus I count every strategy as equal so long as it is physically possible (even if not probable) AND NFL legal.

Oh, it's just a lightning-rod to get people into the topic, haha. Whether we like or don't like the way people play Madden, that doesn't matter to me. I just want to be able to fight back, without having to resort to using the same tactics.

Quote:

Contain and Spy plays are good for more than just containing ans spying... The Spy assignment plays a short zone in the middle directly across from the QB that is perfect for defending drags. The contain assignment, is great for defending quick short throws from the middle of the field toward the flats and screen passes. When combined, the contain and spy plays give you good coverage between the typical windows where zones are most vulnerable. They can be used in conjunction with man or zone coverage for varied effects.

Your advice for underneath and spy coverages are some gems for tips. I've gotta play around with it. If I'm solely focused on underneath coverage, and not worried about the deep ball, do you think the following would be effective:

- Rush 4
- All cornerbacks and safeties man-to-man.
- Two linebackers spying in the intermediate area.

I've only faced one player in about 20 online games that has employed a style of throwing to the underneath receiver across the middle. (I'd hit him, but Wes Welker's got some good hands).