This article from IGN.......

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

LOL. TNT, the subtle way you sometimes slide in a seemingly innocent slight at those who have a different POV about Madden always makes me smirk. Madden online undoubtedly has some "cut-throat" competition that will do absolutely anything to win and even I enjoy the competitive spirit of online. However, most gamers that have issues with Madden love competition but feel Madden doesn't adequately regulate that competition within NFL guidelines. They are not gamers that could care less about winning and fierce competition, they just believe, as I do, that defeating an opponent outside the guidelines that constitute NFL football, because you can, shows a lack of integrity. We have engaged in this discussion before and I still state it's at least disingenuous, if not outright misleading, when gamers should go online expecting adequate NFL regulated video game football but find that EA allowing personal fun trumps NFL authenticity. To rephrase your last paragraph "Truth of the matter is, I wish there were other NFL games available... It would give the people who play football for the [realism] someplace where they don't have to worry about the cut-throat world of competition that is the driving force behind my affinity for Madden."

BigFNDeal,

I hear what you're saying... But there's tons of realism being simulated within the cut-throat environment that drives people so crazy.

Case in point... That Monday night game where the Giants faked an injury to slow down the Rams no-huddle. Happens ALL THE TIME in the NFL, but it's usually much better disguised. First time I remember seeing it was after a Philadelphia Eagles game years ago that caused the rule change that forced teams to call injury timeouts in the last 2 minutes.

We can debate whether it's ethical to fake an injury - but the rules are designed to account for injury faking. If a player is injured, he must sit out at least ONE (1) play. To avoid missing a play, it costs the injured player's team a timeout.

This illustrates that NFL players will do anything to win. But they don't just push the bounds of the rules, they also do things like lift weights, watch film, and practice in an effort to win. Without the electronic equivalent of weights, film, and practice - there is no such thing as a realistic experience.

When Madden players simulate these same behaviors, the results are similar to the NFL. But, seriously, how many Madden players do you know that actually watch their own game film?

Another illustration is my best friend. He played high school football, watches football religiously, and he's been playing Madden for 18 years. He just went 0 for 7 against me in Madden 12 after almost 2 decades of playing 50/50 ball...

He can't touch me today. Can't stop me on the ground or thru the air and can't move the ball (unless I let him). Can't score in the red zone... I dominate him in EVERY FACET.

The ONLY difference between us is how much more skilled I am because of the realistic NFL approach I take to preparing for an NFL video game. THAT'S IT.

Imagine an NFL team going against some Pop Warner squad... That's what it feels like when you play some unprepared guy who plays Madden for fun (aka realism) and gets pounded into the dirt. The first thing they usually do is find some reason that my complete domination of them was somehow unethical.

As a competitor, I am less cut-throat than most. I'll actually tell people EXACTLY why I am beating them.

If their user skills suck, I'll let them know. If they keep calling the same defense over and over, I'll let them know that too. My favorite thing to say is, "You better learn to call Fair Catch" (usually after a fumble return for a score.

Now think about it... I'm online against Play Now competitors and facing some guy that buys Madden every few years. My opponent is football savvy, but doesn't take Madden seriously. I'm gonna beat him so severely every time we play because he's not as prepared.

Oddly, when I meet a prepared player everything seems more realistic.

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Couldn't have said it better myself. I had every Madden since it's inception in 1988 up until about 2001. I didn't play many games after that so I stopped buying it when 2k football caught my eye. I enjoyed 2k more because I felt that 2k better represented the sport and was much more a thinking man's game. Of course, TNT will disagree and say I am wrong and know nothing about football because he feels the opposite, and as we all know, his opinion is right. I loved Madden when it was good and in 2004 I enjoyed both 2k5 and Madden 2k5. I've played damn near every football game since the days of RealSports football on the Atari 2600. There are several games that existed back in the day that did things MUCH more realistic than Madden and allowed you to apply real football concepts in order to achieve success.

Taz,

You seem to be around my age... OLD, but not too old to play video games.

Football is a rough game played by tough men. Overcoming adversity is as much the appeal of the game as the big hits and long bombs. If the game of football were easy enough for anybody with a pulse to play the appeal would not be as great. When I see guys who obviously are educated about the game of football attempting to change the 'toughness' of Madden - I often take a stand and say - You can't know football. SO I PREACH TOUGHNESS.

When I say people don't know about football - it's because I believe NO ONE KNOWS EVERY ASPECT...

Some guys are stat guys. They can tell you what stats mean and look at the box score and tell you virtually how the game went.

Some guys are personnel guys. They know who plays for whom, how that player might impact a team, and what type of player different teams need to fit their systems...

I'm neither of these dudes... I don't care about personnel or stats.

Myself, I'm an X's and O's guy. I have always had a knack for drawing up plays. Whether it was when I was 6 in the back yard, playing 11-on-11 pick-up games in college, or on Madden. I enjoy both the implementation of 'new' strategies and the historical reasons for the old ones. I care most about HOW TO USE personnel to generate the stats...

I don't know anyone that is ALL THREE TYPES - hence no one knows everything there is to know about football. Not me. Not you. Not even the Hall of Fame coaches and players. NO ONE. That's why the AFCA exists - because real coaches understand that they have so much to learn from other coaches.

BUT... Because I'm serious about Madden I've have been forced to look at the game from the perspective of stat and personnel guys. In making the EFFORT to learn more I've discovered how much I still haven't learned. It's the reason I still read books about football...

When I was simply concerned with X's and O's, I lost because my execution lacked. When my execution got better, I lost because I wasn't focused enough. When I sharpened my focus, I lost because of decisions I made... So on, so forth. The journey is cyclical and NEVER ENDING.

So don't assume that my assertions that people don't know football is a slight to you personally - it's a comment to be applied equally to every human that breathes air (including myself).

HOWEVER, there is a difference... I completely respect those who strive to learn more about the various aspects of the game AND how to apply real world football understanding to Madden because I KNOW HOW HARD IT IS.

Where in the NFL bad players get cut and disappear into the ether... Bad Madden players start message boards and you can't do or say anything to make them aware that their own desires for 'realism' are being deterred by their own casual attitude toward their own preparation...

This game is as realistic as you make it... Realistic effort = Realistic results.

Most people want to play an NFL game against the most ruthless competitors in the world without so much as a practice session. Others think that playing the CPU in offline modes can prepare you for human competition. I think both of these are laughable and I often LAUGH hysterically at opponents who enter games with this notion.

Think about it this way... How many people do you know that would play 2 years of ANY GAME without a win against the CPU or a human? I know ONE. But because I'm that tenacious I expect others to have the same the tenacity. Football without tenacity isn't realistic whether it's on grass or a gaming console.

While anyone can learn how to play Madden in a matter of minutes, it takes YEARS to master. I'm starting decade #3 this season. I hope to master it soon.

Later

[Argooos]

TNT713, you seem to be claiming that Madden is realistic (has realism) because certain aspects of it, if you play a certain way, are realistic.
That's similar to claiming that it's a sunny day outside because I am sitting in a patch of sun, despite there being shade everywhere else.
If the only way to achieve realism in Madden is to play online and prepare for games as if you were an actual NFL coach/player, then that's not the kind of realism that I'd imagine the vast majority of gamers want. The vast majority of gamers want pick-up-and-play realism. They want the game to mimic reality without them having to put a ton of work into it. They want to players to move and to react in realistic fashions. They want players to obey the laws to physics and momentum. They want the AI to make intelligent decisions. They want to be able to take all the same actions as coaches and GMs and owners if they so choose. Those are the kinds of things people are talking about when they say they want realism in their game. They are not saying that they want to have to put in many hours of work and practice in order to have a realistic gaming experience.

[scoonie05]

OMG Who cares?? Nobody's right or wrong because it's only opinion.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

If the only way to achieve realism in Madden is to play online and prepare for games as if you were an actual NFL coach/player, then that's not the kind of realism that I'd imagine the vast majority of gamers want. The vast majority of gamers want pick-up-and-play realism. They want the game to mimic reality without them having to put a ton of work into it.

Herein lies the crux of the problem...

Thousands of us play competitively using the same effort of the NFL to simulate the NFL on Madden. We believe that only realistic effort will result in realistic games. Players who want the on-field realism without the off-field effort WILL NOT FIND IT when playing against opponents who embrace all of the aspects of realism.

It truly is an "Us" against "Them" situation.

I've often said that Madden isn't like any other video game because of the level of competition that exists here that I don't believe exists anywhere else in the video game world.

I did an interview with ShopMaster not too long ago and asked why Madden has the place in our hearts that it does. Neither of us could put our finger on the reason, we just knew we don't take losses in any other video game in the same way. After a loss, we HATE TO GO TO BED. We both have nightmares about Madden. Here's the QUOTE from the interview:

Quote:

TNT713: What is it about Madden that makes us want to play it all the time? Shopmaster: For me, it’s all about competition. You said it earlier. You don’t like to lose. Nothing is worse than playing Madden and going to bed on a loss. There’s nothing worse than that. My wife will tell you, Sometimes I don’t come to bed til 2 o’clock in the morning. I’m trying to get that win before I go to bed. TNT713: [Laughs] It does feel better? Shopmaster: It feels a lot better. You know how good I can sleep at night? Because after every game that I lose, you know – I started recording my games. It has made me such a better Madden player. Because I can go back and look and be like, “Man, I cannot do anything against his defense. Then I look and say, I had a guy open there. What makes us play? It’s competition. You can say it’s the competition, but there’s competition in every game that you play, YEAH… But it’s something about football. It’s something about playing football with your friends... They say baseball is the great American past time… Nah… Not for me. Football is the great American pastime.

NO QUESTION..... I'm HARDCORE. I have an HD capture device so I can watch film to grade my own play. Thousands of others have done the same. In essence, if Madden isn't that serious to someone - they have NO HOPE OF COMPETING with players who put in the effort so they don't have nightmares. LOL

To me, if you don't lose sleep after a loss - you aren't playing the game right.

Someone said it earlier... There is NOTHING WRONG with being a casual player as long as you recognize yourself as such.

Lastly, there are steps players can take to improve their Madden abilities that don't require hours of time reading, practicing, and hundreds of dollars in financial investment. It only requires that those players stop listening to people who haven't/don't take the game seriously.

Trust me... Winning is fun. Even the casual players want to win. But will they do what it takes to win? The winning at an NFL game without exerting any effort seems less realistic than anything people complain about. It's one thing to chastise those who go too far and will do ANYTHING TO WIN... But we should be just as harsh critics of those who won't do anything to win.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

@TNT, of course we probably will not agree so no need for us going into a long back and forth about this.

I just recently got another copy of M12 from somebody and have been playing for about a week and a half. Yesterday, I got on a 9 game winning streak in online ranked games.

A little while ago, that streak came to a halt after playing someone that zig-zagged thru traffic on kick returns/defense to avoid engaging blockers due to inadequate movement mechanics and switched to the defender on deep pass plays to use their "second gear" speed burst to intentionally repeatedly run into my WR due to illegal contact not being in the game and PI seeming to only be called if the receiver is tackled before touching the ball.

Now imagine if you would, if the real NFL didn't have illegal contact, EVERY player had a "second gear" and defensive PI was only called if the defender tackled the receiver. One would think the entire league would look much different than the one we have today. My point is, if just two rules regulated differently and additional physical skills would have such an obvious foundational impact on the real NFL there is no way to logically argue that with so many inadequately represented NFL parameters, Madden NFL is currently, NFL realistic.

I am not talking about things like going threw the endzone seats and occasionally the ball going through a player's hand, that of course is to be expected at times. I am talking about fundamental NFL parameters lacking or missing and being categorized in the past as a hindrance to having fun.

[Argooos]

TNT713, your response didn't really address what I wrote. All you did there was re-iterate what I already know. Yes, everything you wrote there is true for you. Again though, you fail to acknowledge that other kinds of realism are important to other people. You cite the thousands of people who play Madden ultra-competitively like you. I could just as easily cite the thousands of people who play offline franchise and just want the AI to make intelligent realistic decisions in gameplay and as a GM.
What I'm saying is that 1 vs 1 play is not the only way that people play Madden. Not everyone cares only about being good at the game. Not everyone loses sleep over winning or losing. I know I have lost sleep while thinking of decisions to make in franchise mode.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

To me, if you don't lose sleep after a loss - you aren't playing the game right.

This just shows your lack of understanding. There is no wrong way to play a video game. Whatever someone finds fun is the right way to play.

What many people are asking for in no way would ruin the way you play the game. If players on the field obeyed the laws of physics better, if anything it would improve the realism of your games. If the AI were improved so that realistic decisions were made by computer-controlled players, that would hardly affect you since you don't seem to play against the AI.

You continue to talk as if your way of playing is the only way that matters. It's not. Every player deserves a realistic depiction of NFL football when they play Madden, whether it's their first time playing or their millionth time playing, whether they are obsessed with winning, or couldn't care less as long as they have fun.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Argooos

TNT713, your response didn't really address what I wrote. All you did there was re-iterate what I already know. Yes, everything you wrote there is true for you. Again though, you fail to acknowledge that other kinds of realism are important to other people. You cite the thousands of people who play Madden ultra-competitively like you. I could just as easily cite the thousands of people who play offline franchise and just want the AI to make intelligent realistic decisions in gameplay and as a GM. What I'm saying is that 1 vs 1 play is not the only way that people play Madden. Not everyone cares only about being good at the game. Not everyone loses sleep over winning or losing. I know I have lost sleep while thinking of decisions to make in franchise mode. This just shows your lack of understanding. There is no wrong way to play a video game. Whatever someone finds fun is the right way to play. What many people are asking for in no way would ruin the way you play the game. If players on the field obeyed the laws of physics better, if anything it would improve the realism of your games. If the AI were improved so that realistic decisions were made by computer-controlled players, that would hardly affect you since you don't seem to play against the AI. You continue to talk as if your way of playing is the only way that matters. It's not. Every player deserves a realistic depiction of NFL football when they play Madden, whether it's their first time playing or their millionth time playing, whether they are obsessed with winning, or couldn't care less as long as they have fun.

Argooos,

Believe it or not, I agree that Madden SUCKS. If I didn't play 1v1, I'd have the EXACT SAME OPINIONS as most of the OS community... Madden SUCKS without it. Look around at all the disgruntled people that play the parts of Madden that SUCK.

Check this... Let's step away from 1v1 for a moment. When I play Franchise I can't get beyond like week 6. Because its boring. When I play Superstar, I get through a few practices because it's boring. Take any other mode and Madden wouldn't be worth the $60 I pay for it.. But add 1v1 online and the game becomes INFINITELY entertaining where it would not be otherwise.

That's my opinion... Mine alone. And I don't expect anyone to agree with me.

But --- If a player doesn't like his favorite mode (because it sucks or is otherwise disappointing), don't get mad at me because I'm able to completely enjoy the only part of the game that I'll agree does not suck without ever having to subject myself to the parts that do.

1v1 ROCKS

IMO, the best mode in Madden, 3v3, also rocks.... But only when playing with good players (RARE).

Later

[Argooos]

Okay, that's more clear.

I just want to point out though, that there are plenty of sophisticated football fans who are only interested in the currently "sucky" aspects of the game. 1vs1 is not the only game mode that sophisticated players like.