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feeq14 · 10-31-2011, 05:31 PM

Im realizing that there is a way possibly via a patch to greatly improve blocking right now.

The problem with blocking is that there are only 4 outcomes. Defender wins and tosses the offensive lineman. Defender loses and is pancaked, defender stalemate or push toward play, or olineman stalemate push away from play.

The defender win and pancake animations happen WAAAAY too often, in fact im sure im not the only one who has naturally learned to goad defenders into disengaging in the wrong direction in order to open up a hole. What makes this worse is that as soon as linemen gets disengaged, instead of trying to reengage like in real life or stay partially engaged, they simply head downfield to get another block. This leads to an unatural amount of big runs if you know what you are doing. It just makes the running game unrealistic. When teams stop the run its not because defensive linemen are tossing their blocks aside, its because they clog holes and running lanes and the back gets cleaned up by other players.

The same issue is there on passes, pass rushing is unrealistic because the only time sacks occur is when defenders "win" and they toss aside the blocker and head unimpeded to the QB at full speed. It is impossible to pass on madden without perfect blocking. In real life defenders make a move to beat the blocker but the blocker still fights the defender all the way to the qb white collapsing the pocket. Pockets never collapse in madden.

What needs to happen overall is to scrap the animation system. But for now they just need to severely reduce the complete "win" or "lose" animations except in special cases where elite players are going up against marginal ones. And they need to significantly juice up push/pull animations that clog/open running lanes or create/collapse passing pockets. It do wonders to the realism of in game play and making ratings matter.

Senator Palmer · 10-31-2011, 06:28 PM

I know exactly what you are talking about, and I've had the same sentiment for a while, especially in the pass rushing. Unfortunately, what you are talking about is line interactions, and I don't think that's something that can be patched -- other than getting the shedding linemen to not run away from the ball carrier -- because it hasn't been right in this generation. True gap assignments, o-linemen riding ends pass the QB, then have the End take an inside move, while the guards give ground to the DTs in a true bull rush, or having stunts executed consistently, is going to have to have a dedicated development cycle to get right, the same way they spent a cycle re-programming blocking assignment.

lilgame06 · 10-31-2011, 08:13 PM

yea, lineman fall to the ground very often it seems...its really lame getting stuck on a lineman that fell taking his defender to the ground. Most people dont have the reaction time to hit the hurdle button to get over that.

But the worst is the flow of the offensive line on run plays. particularly stretch run plays. The stretch run in the nfl has the o-lineman flowing to the sideline where the run is directed toward. Its then the job of the running back to either follow his blocks to the sideline and get the most he can get by getting to the corner. Or he can see the hole in the flow and cut it upfield or cut it back across and gain much more yardage. That doesnt exist in madden because offensive lineman just stand in place and block where they are, rather than flow with the play.

I watch the texans every week, and its amazing watching their offensive line carry defenders toward the sideline, and then seeing Arian Foster and Ben Tate find a gap, and zoom upfield, or cutting back and finding a uncovered back side to the play.

But even better is the play action they get off of the stretch play. I have seen Matt Schaub play action bootleg off the stretch run and literally bootleg into open field all by himself, because the defense flowed so hard with the offensive line. That doesn't exist what-so-ever in madden, but it would be really awesome if it did. in the video i'll link below, check out the play at :30, 1:05, and 2:18. those are just a few examples of how well play action should work off of stretch run plays...assuming ur running that stretch to success.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzkqchFbhM

TNT713 · 11-01-2011, 02:50 PM

Doesn't really matter how plays are blocked... There will be ways to turn that into big plays OR attack it for big losses.

If they change the blocking AGAIN, it will take about 2 months before we've adjusted to it AGAIN.

For instance, remember how ZONE was improved... It was. In week 1. Now that players have had time to get hundreds of games in, zone is getting picked apart again.

The fact that we end up at this point every year at around the same time means we adjust to whatever EA does at the same rate every year. 2 months with Madden is enough time to see hundreds of hours of 'game film' and reps against various defenses.

Also... There are tons of run blocking schemes on this game. It's not always man-on-man blocking.

Later

shttymcgee · 11-01-2011, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNT713


	Doesn't really matter how plays are blocked... There will be ways to turn that into big plays OR attack it for big losses. If they change the blocking AGAIN, it will take about 2 months before we've adjusted to it AGAIN. For instance, remember how ZONE was improved... It was. In week 1. Now that players have had time to get hundreds of games in, zone is getting picked apart again. The fact that we end up at this point every year at around the same time means we adjust to whatever EA does at the same rate every year. 2 months with Madden is enough time to see hundreds of hours of 'game film' and reps against various defenses. Also... There are tons of run blocking schemes on this game. It's not always man-on-man blocking. Later

But they arent implemented properly. There should be much more lateral movement

macbranson · 11-02-2011, 12:50 AM

The physical interactions between players needs to be improved, in general. This mainly applies to Offensive linemen vs Defensive linemen and Wide Receivers vs Defensive backs. The animations are too "cookie cutter" or just don't exist at all. There should be more of a physical dynamic that can change based on positioning and body angle and all that stuff. Similar to the way the implemented all of these new tackling animations. I like the tackling animations (but way too many big hits) and they should put that kind of time into other player interactions. These advanced game systems are definitely capable of handling them, it's just that EA doesn't want to spend all that time reworking all that stuff when they can just improve graphics and call the game improved. Maybe they'll do WR/ DB interaction in 2013 and O-line/ D-line interaction in 2014. Then they'll take them away in 2015 or whenever PS4 and the new XBox come out.

KillRoy · 11-02-2011, 01:39 AM

Quote:


	What needs to happen overall is to scrap the animation system.

I've been saying this for like the last 3 or 4 years. I haven't been saying it here but I've been saying it to my friends and such. Especially the QB animations, I just hate'em. It's annoying when you get blitzed and there really is no way to scramble and avoid it because your QB is "stuck in animation". The blocking is really weak in this game too. Fun game but there are soooo many issues with M12, I don't even know where to begin.

feeq14 · 11-02-2011, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TNT713


	Doesn't really matter how plays are blocked... There will be ways to turn that into big plays OR attack it for big losses. If they change the blocking AGAIN, it will take about 2 months before we've adjusted to it AGAIN. For instance, remember how ZONE was improved... It was. In week 1. Now that players have had time to get hundreds of games in, zone is getting picked apart again. The fact that we end up at this point every year at around the same time means we adjust to whatever EA does at the same rate every year. 2 months with Madden is enough time to see hundreds of hours of 'game film' and reps against various defenses. Also... There are tons of run blocking schemes on this game. It's not always man-on-man blocking. Later

Its true that with some time everyone learns how to manipulate the games mechanics. But, that is the problem. The games mechanics dont mimick the real life game enough and you end up not becomeing better at football simulation but become better at exploiting cpu AI.

Most of my big runs arent from well timed jukes by me, or broken tackles by my player, its by me manipulating the D line in the wrong direction as soon as im handed the ball becuase i know they will read my button press *** opposed to the actual play.

Also can we please get rid of the glitch where the CB crashes in on outside runs it is so BS!

10-31-2011, 05:31 PM	#1
feeq14 MVP OVR: 15 Join Date: Jun 2004	the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull Im realizing that there is a way possibly via a patch to greatly improve blocking right now. The problem with blocking is that there are only 4 outcomes. Defender wins and tosses the offensive lineman. Defender loses and is pancaked, defender stalemate or push toward play, or olineman stalemate push away from play. The defender win and pancake animations happen WAAAAY too often, in fact im sure im not the only one who has naturally learned to goad defenders into disengaging in the wrong direction in order to open up a hole. What makes this worse is that as soon as linemen gets disengaged, instead of trying to reengage like in real life or stay partially engaged, they simply head downfield to get another block. This leads to an unatural amount of big runs if you know what you are doing. It just makes the running game unrealistic. When teams stop the run its not because defensive linemen are tossing their blocks aside, its because they clog holes and running lanes and the back gets cleaned up by other players. The same issue is there on passes, pass rushing is unrealistic because the only time sacks occur is when defenders "win" and they toss aside the blocker and head unimpeded to the QB at full speed. It is impossible to pass on madden without perfect blocking. In real life defenders make a move to beat the blocker but the blocker still fights the defender all the way to the qb white collapsing the pocket. Pockets never collapse in madden. What needs to happen overall is to scrap the animation system. But for now they just need to severely reduce the complete "win" or "lose" animations except in special cases where elite players are going up against marginal ones. And they need to significantly juice up push/pull animations that clog/open running lanes or create/collapse passing pockets. It do wonders to the realism of in game play and making ratings matter.

10-31-2011, 06:28 PM	#2
Senator Palmer MVP OVR: 18 Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull I know exactly what you are talking about, and I've had the same sentiment for a while, especially in the pass rushing. Unfortunately, what you are talking about is line interactions, and I don't think that's something that can be patched -- other than getting the shedding linemen to not run away from the ball carrier -- because it hasn't been right in this generation. True gap assignments, o-linemen riding ends pass the QB, then have the End take an inside move, while the guards give ground to the DTs in a true bull rush, or having stunts executed consistently, is going to have to have a dedicated development cycle to get right, the same way they spent a cycle re-programming blocking assignment. __________________ "A man can only be beaten in two ways: if he gives up, or if he dies."

10-31-2011, 08:13 PM	#3
lilgame06 Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Maryland	Re: the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull yea, lineman fall to the ground very often it seems...its really lame getting stuck on a lineman that fell taking his defender to the ground. Most people dont have the reaction time to hit the hurdle button to get over that. But the worst is the flow of the offensive line on run plays. particularly stretch run plays. The stretch run in the nfl has the o-lineman flowing to the sideline where the run is directed toward. Its then the job of the running back to either follow his blocks to the sideline and get the most he can get by getting to the corner. Or he can see the hole in the flow and cut it upfield or cut it back across and gain much more yardage. That doesnt exist in madden because offensive lineman just stand in place and block where they are, rather than flow with the play. I watch the texans every week, and its amazing watching their offensive line carry defenders toward the sideline, and then seeing Arian Foster and Ben Tate find a gap, and zoom upfield, or cutting back and finding a uncovered back side to the play. But even better is the play action they get off of the stretch play. I have seen Matt Schaub play action bootleg off the stretch run and literally bootleg into open field all by himself, because the defense flowed so hard with the offensive line. That doesn't exist what-so-ever in madden, but it would be really awesome if it did. in the video i'll link below, check out the play at :30, 1:05, and 2:18. those are just a few examples of how well play action should work off of stretch run plays...assuming ur running that stretch to success. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzkqchFbhM

11-01-2011, 02:50 PM	#4
TNT713 Banned OVR: 8 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Blog Entries: 1	Re: the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull Doesn't really matter how plays are blocked... There will be ways to turn that into big plays OR attack it for big losses. If they change the blocking AGAIN, it will take about 2 months before we've adjusted to it AGAIN. For instance, remember how ZONE was improved... It was. In week 1. Now that players have had time to get hundreds of games in, zone is getting picked apart again. The fact that we end up at this point every year at around the same time means we adjust to whatever EA does at the same rate every year. 2 months with Madden is enough time to see hundreds of hours of 'game film' and reps against various defenses. Also... There are tons of run blocking schemes on this game. It's not always man-on-man blocking. Later

11-02-2011, 12:50 AM	#6
macbranson Pro OVR: 0 Join Date: Sep 2011	Re: the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull The physical interactions between players needs to be improved, in general. This mainly applies to Offensive linemen vs Defensive linemen and Wide Receivers vs Defensive backs. The animations are too "cookie cutter" or just don't exist at all. There should be more of a physical dynamic that can change based on positioning and body angle and all that stuff. Similar to the way the implemented all of these new tackling animations. I like the tackling animations (but way too many big hits) and they should put that kind of time into other player interactions. These advanced game systems are definitely capable of handling them, it's just that EA doesn't want to spend all that time reworking all that stuff when they can just improve graphics and call the game improved. Maybe they'll do WR/ DB interaction in 2013 and O-line/ D-line interaction in 2014. Then they'll take them away in 2015 or whenever PS4 and the new XBox come out.

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the problem with blocking is that there is no push or pull