what do I have to do to get my WR's to JUMP for a ball?!

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

In the video game world Mario doesn't jump without interaction, Solid Snake doesn't sneak without interaction, Link doesn't stab without interaction, etc... In baseball games, the batter doesn't swing without interaction. Basketball players don't shoot without interaction. Nor will a soccer player kick without interaction.

Interesting that you left RPGs and RTSs off the list

Good AI for the player's troops/army/characters, etc is not some unheard of concept in video games.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

But in Madden it's kool to watch the CPU run, catch, and tackle without interaction. When the user refuses to take control as allowed, he's not really mad about the CPU failure. He's really mad at his own failure to make the play.

Show me the button to control the other 10 players other than the one I have the circle under.

The Player AI is not perfect and DOES need to improve. Football is the ultimate team game, Madden should better reflect that - not make it an over glorified version of 1-on-1 with 20 other people just happening to be there, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Think of it this way... If I'm coaching a player that knows where to go and what to do in a given situation - but refuses to interact and make the play - he's CUT. That player is useless chaff unfit to be on the field.

Except the players in Madden do not even understand basic football concepts in a lot of areas.

Pursuit angles, LBs shooting gaps and taking angles that don't run them into a pile of bodies, pass rushers that don't force double teams (especially in the 3-4, which is predicated on them), the player AI needs more help.

User should learn the game and the controls to make plays, but until they can control all 11 players at once, you can't tell me the AI is perfect and the only reason plays work/don't work is lack of skill.

[dfos81]

The only way I've seen the a.i. @ 100% is going All 100 on skill sliders. I use 50-set to Allpro for user skills and 100 for all CPU skills.
The only way the other 10 teammates start making plays around me is if I'm able to user control and make some kind of plays myself. It kind goes hand and hand with the design of Madden.

Madden was designed to reward the user skills, nobody can deny that. It's never changed, so some can spend more headaches trying to make it a non-user control game, but that's never what Madden was designed to do. So those will continue searching for a perfect setup. http://www.operationsports.com/forum...o-realism.html
I'm done searching and use these.

BTW user catch: Go to practice mode and throw and catch. Others have mentioned the steps however you'll never learn it by reading steps. Go practice user catching and how to throw it to get that animation, its a game. Play it!

[TNT713]

Interesting that you left RPGs and RTSs off the list

Good AI for the player's troops/army/characters, etc is not some unheard of concept in video games.[/quote]

I'll go ahead and say that RPG games suck - especially the turn-based ones.

Regarding RTS, I'm most familiar with Command & Conquer. If I tell a team of tanks to defend, they don't move out and attack. They defend. Even if I give them the dumbest orders, they will carry them out... Which leads me to this:

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Show me the button to control the other 10 players other than the one I have the circle under. User should learn the game and the controls to make plays, but until they can control all 11 players at once, you can't tell me the AI is perfect and the only reason plays work/don't work is lack of skill.

This starts with the play call screen. In essence, we are issuing commands to 11 different players at once. We select which 11 men are on the field, where they line up, and their assignments.

When we arrive at the LOS, we can further change assignments and positioning pre-snap so that each player is performing precisely the assignment we want him to perform from the place we want him to perform it. From here you can give commands to individuals (hot routes, defensive playmaker, etc) OR groups of players (linebacker shifts, O-line protection, etc).

After the snap is the only time control is limited to 1 player at a time... Even then you can switch to other players. Players that call plays that leave their men in bad positions may continue to do so without the knowledge that they are actually controlling all 11 men.

The idea that there's only one person we control comes from folks who ignore the play-call screen AND pre-snap adjustments as a method of interaction.

Quote: Originally Posted by dfos81

The only way the other 10 teammates start making plays around me is if I'm able to user control

I won't go that far... The CPU can and will make some plays. But the CPU doesn't think, feel, anticipate, nor react as well as a human can.
Only the user knows how he wants his players to perform...

I will say, without remorse, that the only way to ensure that players perform the specific task appropriate to EVERY football situation is to take control and make the play USER STYLE.

The way I see it, cursing at the CPU isn't going to make a play - Pressing the buttons will. Why waste time being mad at the CPU for not pressing the right buttons when we could just press the right buttons ourselves?

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This starts with the play call screen. In essence, we are issuing commands to 11 different players at once. We select which 11 men are on the field, where they line up, and their assignments. When we arrive at the LOS, we can further change assignments and positioning pre-snap so that each player is performing precisely the assignment we want him to perform from the place we want him to perform it. From here you can give commands to individuals (hot routes, defensive playmaker, etc) OR groups of players (linebacker shifts, O-line protection, etc). After the snap is the only time control is limited to 1 player at a time... Even then you can switch to other players. Players that call plays that leave their men in bad positions may continue to do so without the knowledge that they are actually controlling all 11 men.

I can switch to other players, but then I'm just trying to adjust to the bad decision they made in the first place. Not to mention MADDEN decides who you switch to. Why can't I switch to the player I want that I could pre-emptively control as the play unfolds. This is supposed to be about stick skills, right? So why not allow this?

Pursuit is notorious for this - they forever look to get AHEAD of the ball carrier, not AT the ball carrier (i.e. his hip). If I could take a defender early, set him on a line, switch to someone else and run the ball carrier into him, then at least I'm executing team football concepts even if I have to do it all.

You can't control the OL at all after the snap - so even with a good line call, they don't understand protecting inside-out, which is why DT often get so many sacks. Throw in a lack of double team understanding on the line and it gets worse. Why would any blocking scheme try to block Suh or Wilfork or Ngata 1-on-1? So where's the "double-this-guy" button for pass protection? Why can't I "spotlight" a rusher?

They don't execute zone run plays properly. Again, I can't control the OL on run plays - I have to hope the player AI picks out the right defender, and, again, it inconsistently understands concepts of points of attack. Where is the button to control my blockers while I'm the HB?

If I'm supposed to make a lot of presnap calls and reads - fine - so the game should have those things in there. I should be able to name the Mike and the protection adapts to THAT not just "left, right, middle". If a guy is getting constantly beat, I should be able to assign "help" to him, like a real team would.

There are some plays I can't bring a man in motion. Why is that? NFL rules allow for one man to go in motion, set, then another man to go in motion. Why can't I do that?

If the game is supposed to be about user strategy - then let me be a strategist. Give me the options an NFL OC/DC would have. Where's the ability to stunt? I can pinch, edge, crash, why no stunt?

So, no, until these limitations are gone, I don't think user control is the sole reason for play failure/success. The user can't control all the aspect of a play, so the player AI should at least understand basic concepts for what we can't control.

[TNT713]

KB,

You bring up some very good points... Some of which are already on the game in one form, but would also be NICE if it were available in another. But that's not really my point on this thread. My role is to help people realize how much control they have and encourage them to utilize it. But since you were so thoughtful in your response, I'll try to address how the user can control the action in each instance:

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I can switch to other players, but then I'm just trying to adjust to the bad decision they made in the first place. Not to mention MADDEN decides who you switch to. Why can't I switch to the player I want that I could pre-emptively control as the play unfolds. This is supposed to be about stick skills, right? So why not allow this?

I don't switch to correct the CPU. I switch because I'd rather screw up than let the CPU make an outstanding play... I'd prefer to lose trying to make every play than to watch the CPU play flawlessly. If I wanted to watch a football game, I'd watch a football game. I play Madden to PLAY MADDEN.

It would be nice to select which player you switch to, but how?

Ultimately it would require a toggle button that activates an icon selector to choose which player you switch to... Probably quicker just to hit O/X twice.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Pursuit is notorious for this - they forever look to get AHEAD of the ball carrier, not AT the ball carrier (i.e. his hip). If I could take a defender early, set him on a line, switch to someone else and run the ball carrier into him, then at least I'm executing team football concepts even if I have to do it all.

I don't notice pursuit angles... As a USER, I switch and adjust defenders whenever I don't switch to the defender I want initially. When I get the defender I want first, I use him to stay in front when there's no force man - or go for the hit when there is...

In other words, I like to setup funnel shots on the ball carrier.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

You can't control the OL at all after the snap - so even with a good line call, they don't understand protecting inside-out, which is why DT often get so many sacks. Throw in a lack of double team understanding on the line and it gets worse. Why would any blocking scheme try to block Suh or Wilfork or Ngata 1-on-1? So where's the "double-this-guy" button for pass protection? Why can't I "spotlight" a rusher?

There's no "Double This Guy" function, per se... But you can call a play with as many as two double-team blocks (runs only) especially effective against the Wilforks, Ngatas, and Suhs of the world.

This would be nice...

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

They don't execute zone run plays properly. Again, I can't control the OL on run plays - I have to hope the player AI picks out the right defender, and, again, it inconsistently understands concepts of points of attack. Where is the button to control my blockers while I'm the HB?

The buttons you press to control your O-line happen in the play call screen and at the line of scrimmage.

While you are the HB you have some control over your linemen, most noticeable in the open field They will adjust their path based on where the HB runs. When you cut right, they meander right. When you juke left, they ease left. They try to maintain relative position between you and defenders.

That said, they are often the slowest least agile players on the field.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

If I'm supposed to make a lot of presnap calls and reads - fine - so the game should have those things in there. I should be able to name the Mike and the protection adapts to THAT not just "left, right, middle". If a guy is getting constantly beat, I should be able to assign "help" to him, like a real team would.

Don't sleep. Naming the Mike isn't nearly as important as identifying him and sliding the protection - which you must do in Madden. In real life you might say 53 is the Mike and the O-line shifts the protection, in Madden you must find the Mike and make the protection call.

Either way, the Mike call is alive and well in Madden.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

There are some plays I can't bring a man in motion. Why is that? NFL rules allow for one man to go in motion, set, then another man to go in motion. Why can't I do that?

I'm with you on this... But the wimpy Madden players can't deal with motion. They do everything they can to avoid it including complain that tactics are too effective. Because of soft players with loud voices - several plays that used to have motion no longer have it as an option.

Regarding the motion of several players... That would be nice.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

If the game is supposed to be about user strategy - then let me be a strategist. Give me the options an NFL OC/DC would have. Where's the ability to stunt? I can pinch, edge, crash, why no stunt?

Stunts were a huge part of the game at one point... Again, blame the whining softies. Once upon a time in Madden '04 you could move defensive linemen around to create stunts because they maintained their gap assignment after being moved to another gap. A DE attacking the A-Gap would still try to penetrate the A even if he moved to the C. Likewise with a DE hitting the C being moved to the A.

Now, if you move a defensive lineman and switch off of him, he moves back to his original position. Now we have to call plays with stunts in the play design or use a makeshift contain from the inside while an outside man rushes...

Once again, this would be nice.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

So, no, until these limitations are gone, I don't think user control is the sole reason for play failure/success. The user can't control all the aspect of a play, so the player AI should at least understand basic concepts for what we can't control.

In the years I've played the devil's advocate regarding Madden (10 now), I find that the more a player uses the term "AI", the less likely they are to fully understand how much control they actually have over how AI players perform.

Many of the controls that are already in the game go largely unused by the general population. Adding more options isn't going to improve the game for any the people who aren't already maximizing their control of the action.

While you mentioned some things that would be nice, I'll worry about that stuff when/if they add it. My goal is to encourage people to use the control they currently have. Most don't.

Later

[LionsFanNJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Stunts were a huge part of the game at one point... Again, blame the whining softies. Once upon a time in Madden '04 you could move defensive linemen around to create stunts because they maintained their gap assignment after being moved to another gap. A DE attacking the A-Gap would still try to penetrate the A even if he moved to the C. Likewise with a DE hitting the C being moved to the A. Now, if you move a defensive lineman and switch off of him, he moves back to his original position. Now we have to call plays with stunts in the play design or use a makeshift contain from the inside while an outside man rushes...

This irks me to no end and beings up a sicking point that has been nagging me. The damn man lock. In older Maddens, ones I used to actually play people H2H. The man lock could hide zone coverages as one they man locked the zone responsibilities shifted thus disguising the zone play. Add that to what you were saying about the DL shuffling back to positions once you click off them and you could create some very nice mix ups. That got taken away for some reason on the jump to next gen. Now I know there's the individual hot routing, but its not the same level, especially with the way people have the habit of quicksnapping just a PITA.

Overall I don't have an issue with madden on the field outside of the rush and tightness of the passing game but dammit I want the strategy tools I had last gen. THAT'S what irks me

Oh also weather.

On topic of the thread I can take Megatron and all my recievers really and make plays on the ball been doing it a lot more this year than in the past actually. I'm an offline user btw who does adjust sliders just so that info is out there.

[Nza]

On goalline fade plays I find getting your CPU controlled WRs to jump for the ball is a matter of timing the pass right and putting the right amount of power on it. In the NFL these passes tend to be fairly lob like, but in Madden I find having a bit of power (not full) gets them jumping. It will look like the ball is about to sail right over his head, and all of a sudden he will launch up and get it. This is with guys like Sidney Rice, anyway.

[TheJustPull]

I seem to throw double the picks online and this thread is making me wonder if it's because I'm reyling on the CPU to do things for me. I'm not polished enough yet to throw it and then to to user control on the receiver and try and user catch.. (playstation) and have no idea how to do a rocket catch/ throw. I usually try running the ball as a result and as a result of that I usually lose 5-17 but I am on a 2 game winning binge atm.