How would you LIKE ratings to work?

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This discussion, although full of academic merit, has no practical application. Question: How will any of this make you a better Madden player? Answer: It won't. It would be a better investment of time and effort to discover how the ratings ACTUALLY work instead of how we WISH they did. No one will be able to throw with the right trajectory to get passes over Super-LBs after reading this. No one will be able to read fronts better after reading this. No one will be able to manage the clock better after reading this. To me it suggests that people are focused on where they wished they were instead of where they are. They want to play the game on paper instead of the field. Tsk, tsk... SMH. Carry on... Later

You know TNT, sometimes you leave me shaking my head. Sometimes you and SGibs just can't see the forest for the trees. By making the ratings matter more and having interactions improve as a result, Madden will get better. While 2k8 isn't a perfect Football simulation, it represents a lot of these interactions a lot better and are why people prefer to play it over Madden even to this day.

Some of the "problem" is also fixable with the game you have in your hands. That is to say, some of the "problems" with Madden can be mitigated by simply adjusting sliders. The default All-Pro and All-Madden sliders set by EA just are not tuned very well for a simulation experience that properly reflects the ratings of your players. While I don't have Madden 12, my understanding is that online communities allow you to adjust sliders and settings. If that is true, that is a big deal. Let me give you an example of what I mean:

Say I am playing a game of Madden 11 on default All-Pro sliders. I can tear it up with Josh Morgan [#2 WR of the 49ers with only 74 route running] and Michael Crabtree [80 route running] against most teams in Man Coverage. Only having 74 and 80 route running doesn't really negatively impact their ability to get open against man coverage. While Revis and Nnamdi will likely lock them down, corners with 85+ man coverage should as well, but don't.

When the ratings and interactions better represent the NFL and what we see on Sundays, then players will HAVE to get better at football to get better at Madden. Right now, knowing a lot about football and match ups is kind of important, but not very important. Read my signature. One of the two people who wrote the Prima Guide for Madden 12 wrote that, and his friend [the other of guy who wrote the guide] agrees with him.

I don't really care about getting better at Madden. I care about getting better at football. I don't care about taking advantage of the video game AI, I care about how scheme works along with match ups. You say in your signature "May the best plan win..." Well, if that plan is to take advantage of the AI, then count me out.

[Phobia]

I am a firm believer there is no reason for a 0-100 scale when half the scale is not used most of the time. It should be a 0-10 scale instead. This would also make the difference between each level that much more dramatic. I also think Physical and Mental skills need to be hard stats that do not change except with age.

Physical Skills

40 Yard Dash = Top Speed
20 yard Shuttle Time = Quickness
60 yard Shuttle Time = Acceleration
3 Cone Drill Time = Agility
Vertical Jump = Jump Height
Bench Press = Upper Body Strength
Board Jump = Lower Body Strength

These are the same skills used by the combine to determine a players physical skills. It should be the same numbers used by us to determine a players physical skills.

Example:
Patrick Peterson
40 Yard Dash - 4.3
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.07
60 Yard Shuttle - 11.01
3 Cone - 6.5
Vertical - 38"
Bench Press - 15 reps
Board Jump - 10'6"

Mental Skills

Leadership = How well they make players around them play better
Football IQ = How intelligent they are on the field (awareness)
Motor = How well they go full out every play
Consistency = How often they play to their top level
Mental Toughness = How hard it is to rattle player

Skills used to determine what kind of player they are mentally. These should be in 1-10 range also. Really important set of ratings.

Lets continue with example

Patrick Peterson
40 Yard Dash - 4.3
20 Yard Shuttle - 4.07
60 Yard Shuttle - 11.01
3 Cone - 6.5
Vertical - 38"
Bench Press - 15 reps
Board Jump - 10'6"

Leadership = 5
Football IQ = 6
Motor = 7
Consistency = 6
Mental Toughness = 8

--------------------------------------------------------

Now player ratings should still have similar ratings areas as we have now but reduce a vast majority. Plus when clicking on a player you should see only his position important stats, not his entire ratings from QB ratings to Kicker ratings. This would make addressing players much faster and easier than having to scroll through endless waste of space ratings to see how good a player is at a given position.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This discussion, although full of academic merit, has no practical application. Question: How will any of this make you a better Madden player? Answer: It won't. It would be a better investment of time and effort to discover how the ratings ACTUALLY work instead of how we WISH they did. No one will be able to throw with the right trajectory to get passes over Super-LBs after reading this. No one will be able to read fronts better after reading this. No one will be able to manage the clock better after reading this. To me it suggests that people are focused on where they wished they were instead of where they are. They want to play the game on paper instead of the field. Tsk, tsk... SMH. Carry on... Later

Had it ever occurred to you that some people are not even slightly interested in being "Better Madden Players". I never played online. That wasn't fun to me. To me, fun was seeing how well I could build a franchise up. Free agency, the draft, training camps, and other parts of the offseason were the most satisfying to me. Seeing if I could build a dynasty against the All-Madden level. I could really care less how good my Madden skills are. That has never been the most enjoyable part to my gaming experience. So for those who want more depth and realism for things that should be in game, I would not oppose.

After all EA's motto is: If it's in the game, it's in the game. Since this is not the case, I truly believe that people have the right to object to paying 60+ every year for an inferior product that quite simply excludes much of the game from the game. THAT is why we have these discussions.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Had it ever occurred to you that some people are not even slightly interested in being "Better Madden Players". I never played online. That wasn't fun to me. To me, fun was seeing how well I could build a franchise up. Free agency, the draft, training camps, and other parts of the offseason were the most satisfying to me. Seeing if I could build a dynasty against the All-Madden level. I could really care less how good my Madden skills are. That has never been the most enjoyable part to my gaming experience. So for those who want more depth and realism for things that should be in game, I would not oppose.

Franchise appeals to many - not me. Never has. Playing the CPU doesn't fare much higher on my list. I do not understand how people play the CPU for a single game, let alone dozens of seasons.

IMO, the human competitive element is the only element that makes the Madden series irresistible. I've often said that people that don't play humans are missing out on the best part of the Madden experience. Nothing else in the video game world comes close to the thrill of winning a Madden game against a human being.

That said, I'm not opposed to Madden being "better." I just have a problem with waiting until EA makes it better to improve my experience. The way I see it, it's almost the end of football season. Many of the casual Madden fans will be abandoning the series soon as their interest wears off... Me, I still have about 265 more days in my football season. I can't wait for EA to make the game better... I NEED BETTER NOW.

So it's on me to make it better now.

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

You know TNT, sometimes you leave me shaking my head. Sometimes you and SGibs just can't see the forest for the trees. By making the ratings matter more and having interactions improve as a result, Madden will get better. While 2k8 isn't a perfect Football simulation, it represents a lot of these interactions a lot better and are why people prefer to play it over Madden even to this day.

Ratings, and how they relate to game play, are tons more complicated than we seem to think. A receiver's route running isn't just a function of his RTE rating... It also includes his SPD, AGI, ACC, AWR, and possibly other factors.

Imagine a WR who knows everything he needs to break down defenders in coverage - but can't because he takes too long to get into and out of his breaks. That would be synonomous with a WR with a high RTE rating, without SPD, ACC, and AGI ratings as compliments. Even a high RTE rating wouldn't get the separation necessary for the rating to be significant.

Truth be told, I typically don't look at player ratings. I know that they are, and have a fairly good idea about which ones are important for each position's ability to do what I ask, but I don't rely on ratings alone because it's 1/3 of the overall picture (Personnel).

Position and Tempo, the other strategic elements, can more than make up for any ratings differentials. Since 2/3 is twice as large as 1/3, it seems that focusing on ratings misses the bigger picture.

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

I don't really care about getting better at Madden. I care about getting better at football. I don't care about taking advantage of the video game AI, I care about how scheme works along with match ups. You say in your signature "May the best plan win..." Well, if that plan is to take advantage of the AI, then count me out.

If you're concerned with better football you must first understand the correlation between personnel, position, and tempo and how those factors create a solid football plan. One that takes time and experience to prepare, is robust enough to manage every conceivable football scenario, and flexible enough to roll with the punches requires skill. "May the Best Plan Win" is meant to encapsulate all of the hard work that goes into winning at Madden.

Regarding "May the Best Plan Win," - don't soil my slogan with implications that it means taking advantage of the AI.

While you and I know this is merely discussion, there are less knowledgeable members who take every implication posted in message boards as truth and will assume I'm looking to victimize the AI. As you know, I hate typing A and I together. I use CPU together much more regularly to imply that a HUMAN is neglecting to control players, and USER when they accept the full responsibility for PLAYING Madden.

Overall, no pun intended, we place far too much emphasis on ratings.

Later

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

As you know, I hate typing A and I together. I use CPU together much more regularly to imply that a HUMAN is neglecting to control players, and USER when they accept the full responsibility for PLAYING Madden. Overall, no pun intended, we place far too much emphasis on ratings. Later

While I'm busy rushing the passer, I can't control my secondary or my linebackers. While I'm dropping back into coverage with my Inside MLB, I can't control the pass rush...

I agree that less experienced players don't take full advantage of the tools they have... please don't pretend that I can control all 11 defenders at the same time and can jump between them at will. While rushing the passer, I can switch to me nickle corner to better cover the route he is about to give up before the pas is thrown. While I am dropping into coverage with my Mike Backer, I can't make my star pass rusher, controlled by the AI, put on a good pass rushing move to put pressure on the passer or contain his scramble.

I agree there are things that the average Madden gamer can learn and do to step up their game... but there are some things I don't want to have to do just so I can beat people who exploit the game.

For example, in Madden 08 there was a simple "nano blitz" where people would come out in the quarters D most all game long. They would pinch and crash the D-Line and blitz the Mike Backer. The AI for my O-line saw 4 defenders against my Center and two guards. There was no slide protect at the time, and even keeping a back ni to block wasn't enough. You had to chip with a WR in motion from the shotgun to stop this instant pressure on passing plays. What was worse was that you couldn't effectively run against this formation either because Madden didn't respect the ratings or match ups very well at the time. You would lineup with a power running team and have blocks instantly shed at the line by Corner Backs who could also hit stick Brandon Jacobs.

Now, this isn't Madden 08 anymore, and there are more tools and improved game play... but my point remains. I don't want to have to resort to cheap tricks to stop other people who play cheesy football. In fact, for the most part, I got to a point where I would only play trusted players like people here from OS. If I faced a random free style player, a victory or defeat was hollow.

Honestly, at least right now, I am in "Who cares?" mode. I just can't get into the game at all recently... but that is a whole other topic.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

While I'm busy rushing the passer, I can't control my secondary on my linebackers. While I'm dropping back into coverage with my Inside MLB, I can't control the pass rush... I agree that less experienced players don't take full advantage of the tools they have... please don't pretend that I can control all 11 defenders at the same time and can jump between them at will. While rushing the passer, I can switch to me nickle corner to better cover the route he is about to give up before the pas is thrown. While I am droping into coverage with my Mike Backer, I can't make my star pass rusher, controlled by the AI, put on a good pass rushing move to put pressure on the passer or contain his scramble. I agree there are things that the average Madden gamer can learn and do to step up their game... but there are some things I don't want to have to do just so I can beat people who exploit the game. For example, in Madden 08 there was a simple "nano blitz" where people would come out in the quarters D most all game long. They would pinch and crash the D-Line and blitz the Mike Backer. The AI for my O-line saw 4 defenders against my Center and two guards. There was no slide protect at the time, and even keeping a back ni to block wasn't enough. You had to chip with a WR in motion from the shotgun to stop this instant pressure on passing plays. What was worse was that you couldn't effectively run against this formation either because Madden didn't respect the ratings or match ups very well at the time. You would lineup with a power running team and have blocks instantly shed at the line by Corner Backs who could also hit stick Brandon Jacobs. Now, this isn't Madden 08 anymore, and there are more tools and improved game play... but my point remains. I don't want to have to resort to cheap tricks to stop other people who play cheesy football. In fact, for the most part, I got to a point where I would only play trusted players like people here from OS. If I faced a random free style player, a victory or defeat was hollow. Honestly, at least right now, I am in "Who cares?" mode. I just can't get into the game at all recently ... but that is a whole other topic.

I can totally relate to this! lol

Lately, I come on the OS Madden forum hoping some thread or post will somehow spark my Madden interest. I am on a 6 game winning streak online ranked and have just been going through the motions. I finally have been able to play on a LED HDTV after playing about 2 weeks on a 25-in CRT tv and Madden looks graphically AMAZING! That DCAM(?) technology has the coin toss and other scenes, actually looking like a video camera shooting live action. However, actually playing games feels like just marking time.

I thought about doing an offline ratings/DPP experiment by editing all the ratings I think might not be needed, down to 0. Then check how much some aspects of DPP and a hand full of ratings can differentiate players on the field.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

While I'm busy rushing the passer, I can't control my secondary on my linebackers. While I'm dropping back into coverage with my Inside MLB, I can't control the pass rush... I agree that less experienced players don't take full advantage of the tools they have... please don't pretend that I can control all 11 defenders at the same time and can jump between them at will. While rushing the passer, I can switch to me nickle corner to better cover the route he is about to give up before the pas is thrown. While I am droping into coverage with my Mike Backer, I can't make my star pass rusher, controlled by the AI, put on a good pass rushing move to put pressure on the passer or contain his scramble.

I'd rather not debate whether the ability to MICRO-MANAGE all 11 players at once equates to control of the action. You're right, you can't control the moves two players make at the same time. But does not being able to micro-manage the every move of 11 players mean there's no control?

Certainly not. The commands you give to players before they play has a ton to do with what they do when a play begins. We MACRO-MANAGING 10 players while MICRO-MANAGING only one at a time. By MACRO-MANAGING 11 players, we have control over the elements you mention even if it is not direct access to every action.

To me, choosing who you will control on a given play is as important as what you do with them.

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

I agree there are things that the average Madden gamer can learn and do to step up their game... but there are some things I don't want to have to do just so I can beat people who exploit the game.

This statement bothers me... The first part is absolutely true. There are tons of things the average Madden players could do to step up their game and enhance their Madden experience. The part that bothers me comes next... "Things I don't want to have to do" mixed with the notion that doing those things is only good "to beat people who exploit the game."

Essentially, you have pointed out what makes average Madden players average Madden players.

What they don't wanna do, and the idea that changing something they are comfortable equals overcoming an exploit in the game. It's the magical combination of laziness and contempt that spoils the competitive arena more than silly football gimmicks ever have.

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

For example, in Madden 08 there was a simple "nano blitz" where people would come out in the quarters D most all game long. They would pinch and crash the D-Line and blitz the Mike Backer. The AI for my O-line saw 4 defenders against my Center and two guards. There was no slide protect at the time, and even keeping a back ni to block wasn't enough. You had to chip with a WR in motion from the shotgun to stop this instant pressure on passing plays. What was worse was that you couldn't effectively run against this formation either because Madden didn't respect the ratings or match ups very well at the time. You would lineup with a power running team and have blocks instantly shed at the line by Corner Backs who could also hit stick Brandon Jacobs. Now, this isn't Madden 08 anymore, and there are more tools and improved game play... but my point remains. I don't want to have to resort to cheap tricks to stop other people who play cheesy football. In fact, for the most part, I got to a point where I would only play trusted players like people here from OS. If I faced a random free style player, a victory or defeat was hollow.

Madden '08 had slide protection. The 'nano blitz' you refer from Madden '08 allowed players to reverse their DE contain assignments so that all 3 defensive linemen attacked the center. The guard on the strongside widened out far enough that the DE aligned over him could slide into the A-gap untouched against a 5 man protection.

The notion that blocking it with WR motioned from shotgun formations is a common idea. Untrue, but common. Any formation with a blocking FB directly behind the QB was enough to prevent this nano from penetrating the A-Gap. Several other methods worked as well, up to and including sliding protection to the inside. When combining protection shifts with formations that are strong up the middle made this technique useless against runs and passes.

I'm fortunate on two levels. First, there are very few people that operate 93% of their snaps from under center so my offense is well suited to beating heavy middle pressure schemes. Second, opponents using high pressure schemes aren't used to facing people that emphasize protection. Because of the way I use personnel, position, and tempo I haven't had any problems with any nanos for years...

Oddly, the stuff I've learned about dealing with every 'cheese' tactic I've ever read about in the past 10 years of online play, from blocking the A to finding the most practical solution to a tactical problem, are from real football coaches.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I'd rather not debate whether the ability to MICRO-MANAGE all 11 players at once equates to control of the action. You're right, you can't control the moves two players make at the same time. But does not being able to micro-manage the every move of 11 players mean there's no control?

No, but it meams the ratings interactions and decisions the player makes has to be solid.

You're at the extremes. No one in this thread said there's "no" control. However- the user only has partial control. Football is not a 1v1 game, even in madden.

The player AI (and that is what it is from a programming standpoint no matter how much you don't like to type it) also has control, and people want that behavior to both make football sense as well express solidly differing skill sets, and the strengths and weakness thereof.

People also want the game to apply more positional concepts and drop the warping/sliding/suction that the game uses instead of true positioning, more realistic movement/momentum concepts, whivh, again, will make users have to use more football tactics and principles - something I would think you'd be for.

The idea that people focus too much on ratings makes no sense to me. That's like saying that a coach is paying too much attention to the skill sets of his players.