Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by macbranson

"Rocket Catching", as I recall, was when the User manually selected a WR and used Turbo to speed to the ball, turn around and jump to catch it. What made this a "cheese" that it was much more difficult to do the same thing with a CB because they would swat the wrong way or just put their hands up ineffectively. The real problem is that if the WR has time to position himself facing the ball, the defender should be able to do the same and effectively defend the pass without creating an enormous risk of allowing a big play. Another thing about it that sucks is that after the receiver jumped and caught the ball, he would just land and start running again. Most of the time, IRL, when the receiver has to stop and turn to catch the ball, he usually gets tackled. "Rocket Catching" should never have been a "cheese" because it's a realistic thing that happens all the time, but it was considered "cheese" because the game made it particularly difficult to defend.

I disagree with this being the reason RC was called cheese... The real reason, IMO, is that most people seemed to feel they were above using the technique as a matter of honor.

Personally, I've never had a problem with the Jetpack (as it was called in Madden '04) or the RC (as it was called in '05). The difference between these two techniques was that one actually had the receiver undercut the ball as he was still running downfield, similar to a skinny post, while the RC had the receiver face the LOS to make the catch.

Quote: Originally Posted by feeq14

BRIAN FINNERAN Jesus I was racking my brain trying to figure that guys name out! I remember i think madden 04 I had a friend who used the falcons and he would have 250 yards recieving every game. Im pretty sure that is when i stopped playing against humans.

Ahh... Mr Finneran. I hated facing the Falcons too because of him early in the Madden 04 year. That was before I understood the value of user control. Later on the year though, I found myself defending Mr. Finneran with tremendous success.

Mostly, I knock the crap out of receivers after they leave their feet and use man coverage so my defender is close enough to do so.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Ok, so I presume we are talking about User jump catching and if so, I completely agree with it being limited, unless it actually starts to require skill along with adequate risk/reward. Edit* I forgot to add that User catching/intercepting in general needs to involve more controller mechanics other than pressing one button. Maybe something similar to the passing controls with button pressure controlling the type of catch/interception attempted and the right stick controlling "reach" direction.

Actually, user catching does require skill. It's not just a matter of pressing buttons - it's also how those buttons are pressed. Like passing, tapping catch is different than pressing and holding catch. One executes a catch with a high likelyhood of YAC and chances of a drop, the other is a high likelihood of a catch but less chance of a reception.

Also, switching to the receiver and maneuvering him to the proper place in relation to the catch point to make a play on the ball WHILE shielding the defender takes understanding of what role the receiver has AND how to manipulate Madden to ensure the task is performed properly.

I'm sure the current negative press about the RC stems from how effective it was in '08. There weren't any animations to tackle a receiver between the top of his jump and him hitting the ground.

Since '08, much has improved regarding defending the RC - but who really notices? Guys that user control their players - that's who. ;D

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Actually, user catching does require skill. It's not just a matter of pressing buttons - it's also how those buttons are pressed. Like passing, tapping catch is different than pressing and holding catch. One executes a catch with a high likelyhood of YAC and chances of a drop, the other is a high likelihood of a catch but less chance of a reception. Also, switching to the receiver and maneuvering him to the proper place in relation to the catch point to make a play on the ball WHILE shielding the defender takes understanding of what role the receiver has AND how to manipulate Madden to ensure the task is performed properly. I'm sure the current negative press about the RC stems from how effective it was in '08. There weren't any animations to tackle a receiver between the top of his jump and him hitting the ground. Since '08, much has improved regarding defending the RC - but who really notices? Guys that user control their players - that's who. ;D Later

I believe you are confusing User skill with repetition breeding User habits or tendencies. I have gone into practice mode and found the "sweet spot" in regards to timing for making a specific goal line fade all but unstoppable, even against double coverage. It took about 10 minutes to find the timing and if I did it repeatedly, I could accomplish it habitually in games. I don't consider that User skill but a User exploit of the program.

User skill for catching, imo, would be having to make a unique adjustment using various control mechanics on every pass, since every pass is different like the proverbial snowflake. However, "rocket catching" for past Madden's and User catching period , is just something to get used to doing. If it required actual skill, every Tom, Dick and Harry with access to the internet and practice mode, wouldn't be Masters at it in days, allowing it to go "viral" in online ranked games.

That said, I think we are around the same age and grew up in similar areas in NC, so like they used to say back in the day, "...don't talk me to death", prove it. lol. If Madden does in fact have all these skill based control mechanics, demonstrate them, hopefully in a video. Then if they are proven to be true, I sincerely hope that EA takes a page from NBA2k and implements a detailed breakdown of these mechanics in the menu for M13.

I am honestly not trying to be funny, I hope you are right and this is not some placebo effect or just wishful thinking. There seems to be more mysteries surrounding next-gen Madden control mechanics than Scooby-Doo and I would like to see them resolved.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I believe you are confusing User skill with repetition breeding User habits or tendencies. I have gone into practice mode and found the "sweet spot" in regards to timing for making a specific goal line fade all but unstoppable, even against double coverage. It took about 10 minutes to find the timing and if I did it repeatedly, I could accomplish it habitually in games. I don't consider that User skill but a User exploit of the program. User skill for catching, imo, would be having to make a unique adjustment using various control mechanics on every pass, since every pass is different like the proverbial snowflake. However, "rocket catching" for past Madden's and User catching period , is just something to get used to doing. If it required actual skill, every Tom, Dick and Harry with access to the internet and practice mode, wouldn't be Masters at it in days, allowing it to go "viral" in online ranked games.

That's the thing... If you were to practice ONLY ONE THING, it would be easy to master it in a few days. But you would have to put a ton of time in.

The RC for example is something I don't practice. It's so rarely useful in my brand of football that it's not worth spending time to 'master' - but I'm capable of making the catch in the heat of the moment. Not to beat my chest, but I play Madden like it's football first - video game second.

When I meet a player that lives off the RC, I take it away from him. Most frequently they can only do it on one side of the field and having the ball spotted on the opposite hash is a dead giveaway. Any player that relying on repetitious muscle memory will be in for a rude awakening.

I love injuring leaping receivers. Especially when my defender is underneath and can bang their head on the ground and give them a concussion. I'll happily give up a score for a shot at putting Calvin Johnson on a stretcher. It's my PLEASURE. And it happens enough that I'm beginning to doubt if all the injuries are as random as I once thought.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

That said, I think we are around the same age and grew up in similar areas in NC, so like they used to say back in the day, "...don't talk me to death", prove it. lol. If Madden does in fact have all these skill based control mechanics, demonstrate them, hopefully in a video. Then if they are proven to be true, I sincerely hope that EA takes a page from NBA2k and implements a detailed breakdown of these mechanics in the menu for M13.

Born in Goldsboro, grew up in Raleigh, went to school at A&T in Greeensboro (Aggie Pride!)

They do... Several Madden's have had tutorials on the disc about how to do some basic things. Not advanced techniques though. We're left with YouTube demonstrating ONE technique at a time for a populace that only seems to want to learn ONE technique at a time. I like to make the football improvisational, fluid, and artistic so I practice differently than most.

I'll see what I can do to piece together a video with oft overlooked techniques. I think I'll make a "2-Minute Drill" about catching to improve on the one I made last year.

Later

[dfos81]

We wouldn't need "Rocket Catching", Mirroring DBs w/ eyes in the back of the head , or any stupid looking "Mocap" animations over and over if we had a new physics engine.
Maybe something for real-time physics in football.

Maybe something they can build based off Sony's Platform, and port to Xbox lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSJtq...eature=related
Then NO tackle would look the same!!!!!

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by dfos81

We wouldn't need "Rocket Catching", Mirroring DBs w/ eyes in the back of the head , or any stupid looking "Mocap" animations over and over if we had a new physics engine. Maybe something for real-time physics in football.

Well, we wouldn't need it if it just replicated basic football and simple stuff like "is the defender looking back at the ball?"

If yes, deflections chance up, INT chance up, PI chance down.

If no, deflections chance way down, INT chance nearly 0, PI chance goes up.

And if the game respected space and positioning - we'd get more "plain" incomplete passes as neither the WR or defenders would slide/ball be made to go at someone to have a play happen. Passes wouldn't need be so ridiculously off before that happens. What seems ironic is that it seems simpler to NOT make players slide and stuff.

Respect hit boxes at all time (no more ghosting), make sprites move at their usual speed (no more warping/sliding), infuse football common sense into play resolution (no more mirroring - unless they are that good, like Revis, and no more no-look-picks), and I would think the game would play out much better with fewer "trade offs". Then do away with all the "influence" stuff that cause suctioning and I think you have a better game without a drop of physics added.

[BezO]

I remember rocket catching being a problem more because passes are tied to WRs and not routes. Or said another way, WRs are tied to passes, not routes.

A play could call for a WR to run a 10 yard out but if you throw the pass before the break, your QB & WR, magically, both know the pattern has changed to a back shoulder fade.

I'm not sure how the AI works when recognizing pass routes, especially when run over and over, but I'm guessing a CPU DB would never adapt since rocket passing/catching can turn any pattern into a back shoulder fade.

Also, users don't have full control over when DBs jump. Many times, hitting triangle(PS3) only throws the DB's hands up when you want to jump.

As usual, the game has to be shaped around its many limiations. Until animations & AI are brought up to par, we'll either have imbalances such as rocket catching or the absence of routine possibilities.

[Big FN Deal]

To continue with what KBlover and Bezo stated, it all does seem so unnecessary because I don't remember this stuff in PS2/xbox Maddens. Heck, I even remember Joe Montana Sportstalk Football on the Sega Genesis made it extremely challenging to catch the ball, just being on the spot was not enough.

I wonder who decided route based passing and player collisions were holding the game back and decided to change them. I actually remember back in the day that in Madden defenders more so ran into ball carriers and knocked them down or off balance, not so much tackling them. That's when there was actually PI calls because you could "run through" the receiver in the real world sense of making contact, not the literal way players can sometimes do now.

I guess what I am getting at is I wonder why the next evolution of passing and player contact in next gen Madden seemed to attempt to reinvent the wheel, instead of just building on what already worked. Seems to all go back to that programming stuff about not porting over, starting from scratch, 360 kits being late, blah, blah, blah.........

[dfos81]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Well, we wouldn't need it if it just replicated basic football and simple stuff like "is the defender looking back at the ball?" If yes, deflections chance up, INT chance up, PI chance down. If no, deflections chance way down, INT chance nearly 0, PI chance goes up. And if the game respected space and positioning - we'd get more "plain" incomplete passes as neither the WR or defenders would slide/ball be made to go at someone to have a play happen. Passes wouldn't need be so ridiculously off before that happens. What seems ironic is that it seems simpler to NOT make players slide and stuff. Respect hit boxes at all time (no more ghosting), make sprites move at their usual speed (no more warping/sliding), infuse football common sense into play resolution (no more mirroring - unless they are that good, like Revis, and no more no-look-picks), and I would think the game would play out much better with fewer "trade offs". Then do away with all the "influence" stuff that cause suctioning and I think you have a better game without a drop of physics added.

Patch work,
imo all of the issues stated are b/c of the current platform they have been building Madden off of.
So if you guys are happy w/ "mocap" and seeing the same EXACT jump animations from player to player.
Seeing the same 1 handed catch in traffic animation every other game.
All of these "fixes" you mention are just band-aids and never going to make Madden have the true, real-time physics, and something I see on Sundays until they decide to evolve.

They can fix all of that you mentioned and I would still feel like after 3months of heavy playing that I would've already seen all that can possibly happen in Madden animation wise.
It takes away from the replayability, thrill of football(differing hits every game),and it basically handicaps the evolution of Madden going above and beyond "mocap".

So, they can bring back this animation or that animation and I will still feel like it was just a band-aid for the current programming and something they can say was added on the back of the box.
I can see it now, Madden 13 on the back of the box says, it has added 20 new catch animations w/ "rocket catching" w/ certain player types w/ so many differing animations
So after 3months I'm back to wondering why Madden gets so mundane