Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

[steelersfan77]

Yeah Madden really needs to get rid of canned animations and get into the physics engine stuff. The animations between WR's and DB's need a new facelift.

[dfos81]

Quote: Originally Posted by steelersfan77

Yeah Madden really needs to get rid of canned animations and get into the physics engine stuff. The animations between WR's and DB's need a new facelift.

The problems now are the time constraints for developers,
also the exclusivity that doesn't allow others to attempt to develop an NFL Simulation game. So we will continue to see band-aids and small additions to future Maddens.
Imo, until the developers get more time and the exclusivity is removed we will continue to see minor fixes.
Sorry EA,
but just by adding some "rocket catch" animations won't peak my interest for more than the 3 months that M12 has.
EA should allow another party(ie. SCEA) to start building this thing from the ground up for future NFL simulation games. Who knows, maybe they will.

These are just some of the issues http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqu4q...yer_detailpage

[Big FN Deal]

@dfos81, I never put much stock into the need for a physics engine because I was satisfied with what 2k was able to accomplish with canned animations. That said, EA is not 2k and they haven't been too accomplished with animations, imo, so I wouldn't be surprised to see physics in M13. I am not necessarily expecting that but considering the "ghost team" aspect and the fact that NHL, NBA Elite and FIFA have all implemented some version of physics, it doesn't seem far fetched.

Maybe they start small next year and just apply it to off-ball player interactions with animations still used for tackles.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by dfos81

Patch work, imo all of the issues stated are b/c of the current platform they have been building Madden off of. So if you guys are happy w/ "mocap" and seeing the same EXACT jump animations from player to player. Seeing the same 1 handed catch in traffic animation every other game. All of these "fixes" you mention are just band-aids and never going to make Madden have the true, real-time physics, and something I see on Sundays until they decide to evolve. They can fix all of that you mentioned and I would still feel like after 3months of heavy playing that I would've already seen all that can possibly happen in Madden animation wise. It takes away from the replayability, thrill of football(differing hits every game),and it basically handicaps the evolution of Madden going above and beyond "mocap". So, they can bring back this animation or that animation and I will still feel like it was just a band-aid for the current programming and something they can say was added on the back of the box. I can see it now, Madden 13 on the back of the box says, it has added 20 new catch animations w/ "rocket catching" w/ certain player types w/ so many differing animations So after 3months I'm back to wondering why Madden gets so mundane

I guess. I just don't see physics as the great be all and end all of great football games or what would fix Madden's every problem.

To properly do it like true physics, they would have to get a lot of things accurate with ball velocity, throwing motion and angle, velocities of players in and out of cuts, etc, and relate it to ratings, user control, sliders, and still pkay realistic physics. If EA is as bad as people say, are they able to do all of that with high level of realism?

The problems go beyond animations and their lack of variety, imo.

I know I've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility, and don't think physicd is s requirement to making one or making Madden play better football. Physics can't give players proper technique or assignment awareness or make realistic misakes and reads.

[dfos81]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@dfos81, I never put much stock into the need for a physics engine because I was satisfied with what 2k was able to accomplish with canned animations. That said, EA is not 2k and they haven't been too accomplished with animations, imo, so I wouldn't be surprised to see physics in M13. I am not necessarily expecting that but considering the "ghost team" aspect and the fact that NHL, NBA Elite and FIFA have all implemented some version of physics, it doesn't seem far fetched. Maybe they start small next year and just apply it to off-ball player interactions with animations still used for tackles.

Nice! I'm sure signature moves shouldn't be too difficult if they were going to mocap some more animations.
If they did decide to improve physics in the off the ball interactions thats cool with me too. Basically all levels need to be refined imo. O-line, D-line, Lber, Secondary, Wrs, etc.
Rocket Catching may bring back more problems that gave an unfair advantage to the offense. Now if these types of catches did comeback they should be limited in the effectiveness.

EA,
just watch a season of game by game highlights w/ John Madden on his 20 tvs and get the ratio of games to spectacular catches, they don't occur 10xs per gm.
While they're at it they can look at the interactions between WRs and the defense.
No more suction blocking,
This isn't perfect but at least they respect physics and momentum. I know EA has to be considering upgrades in these areas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDgveIr0bs4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEPaF...eature=related

[dfos81]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I guess. I just don't see physics as the great be all and end all of great football games or what would fix Madden's every problem. To properly do it like true physics, they would have to get a lot of things accurate with ball velocity, throwing motion and angle, velocities of players in and out of cuts, etc, and relate it to ratings, user control, sliders, and still pkay realistic physics. If EA is as bad as people say, are they able to do all of that with high level of realism? The problems go beyond animations and their lack of variety, imo. I know I've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility, and don't think physicd is s requirement to making one or making Madden play better football. Physics can't give players proper technique or assignment awareness or make realistic misakes and reads.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility.

I don't doubt you've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility. Go back to those good, fun, quality football games now. Its not even a question that those games wore thin after seeing the same animations over and over and over. You can't tell me that you think that all the animations in Madden now are enough and they should focus on the pregame dance more or something other than what is the issues at the core of the game.
Btw, I've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility too, but I don't see myself going back to those games anytime soon.
Meaning EA/Tiburon needs to evolve and keep getting better if they plan on keeping the NFL tag.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Physics can't give players proper technique or assignment awareness or make realistic misakes and reads.

Really your talking 2 different areas that will allow football to finally be displayed as a "sim game" imo. Physics will be the "meat and potatoes", core of the game, and the 2nd part of this coming together is ratings. Ratings determine "proper technique" or "assignment awareness".
If they can allow true physics along w/ ratings to be displayed correctly, that could be a brighter future for Madden and EA.
You can't claim to be a "sim football game" and defy the laws of physics and morph through WRs for ints.
You can't be sucked into a tackle 6yds away. You can't have your momentum being sucked away into a different animation, b/c your just taking all the "userability" out of the game by allowing these laws of physics being disregarded.

I guess, if you want some new animations for db/wr interactions and some new rocket catching, thats cool. I'm thinking thats all patch work and attempting to hide from the bigger issues.
Evolving at the core can only improve EAs bottom line imo, which also means happier consumers.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by dfos81

I don't doubt you've played good, fun, quality football games before physics was a possibility. Go back to those good, fun, quality football games now.

I still, to this day, play Football Pro '98. Being able to create my own plays from nothing but a blank field and putting together gameplans that dwarf what Madden calls "game planning" trumps any graphics deficiencies (and it had them). Not to mention, when it sims games, it actually calls plays, and you can see what each and every play did in the game log afterwords. THAT is big reason why I love the game. Heck, I even got myself Tecmo Super Bowl (NES version, no less) am having fun.

I love HC 09 - has nothing to do with animations.

Animations are not why I love or hate a football game or a sport game in general. If it was, I wouldn't play games like OOTP, Baseball Pro, or Football Mogul.

I have no idea why you brought up pre-game stuff. I don't remember saying anything about presentation.

Quote: Originally Posted by dfos81

You can't claim to be a "sim football game" and defy the laws of physics and morph through WRs for ints. You can't be sucked into a tackle 6yds away.

And you don't need physics to address those things.

If they truly removed ALL traces of suction - there goes getting suction tackled. If they simply respected hit boxes and made those plays initiate contact, there goes ghosting/morphing.

You can have physics and still have suctioning. In fact, they very well could use suctioning to create more "physics-based tackling" just like they did with Pro-Tak and having way too many tackles turn into "Pro-Tak moments". Heck, if that's a "back of the box feature" it is not beyond EA to go overboard with it so it can "show off" more. Fight for the Fumble seemed to fall into this category.

They could have ball physics, but not have passes move at the proper trajectory or velocity for an Aaron Rodgers pass. There's much more to physics than momentum of players and always different tackles. Physics applies to every single thing that happens on the football field, from the wind affecting passes to it impacting passes not thrown with tight spirals more and to a specific amount over distance to bouncing balls on punts and fumbles and reacting to getting hit and jostled as player try to corral it.

Anything short of that would still be a "band aid". They could use physics here, but not there, etc.

It also takes more than ratings to represent technique and field awareness. The players have to actually know what they are supposed to do, which means EA would have to program the individual player AI to do it. Great blocking physics with a poorly designed blocking scheme would lead to better looking unrealistic results.

[dfos81]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

They could have ball physics, but not have passes move at the proper trajectory or velocity for an Aaron Rodgers pass. There's much more to physics than momentum of players and always different tackles. Physics applies to every single thing that happens on the football field, from the wind affecting passes to it impacting passes not thrown with tight spirals more and to a specific amount over distance to bouncing balls on punts and fumbles and reacting to getting hit and jostled as player try to corral it. Anything short of that would still be a "band aid". They could use physics here, but not there, etc.

Just like the wind affects a golf ball. Actually thats in the game now, the ball physics you mention just add to the list of issues lol. With the correct ball physics you wouldn't see the ball bounce like a basketball everytime it hits the ground. You might see a few more punts inside the 20, instead of bouncing straight out of bounds.
In my mind, a true Simulation of football is not based purely on stats and fantasy leagues, gameplans, etc. If anything its going to take into account both on field gameplay and off field.
So again, your speaking of 2 different cans of fruit here.
Imo, EA needs to open both cans and improve upon the ingredients. Why can't one expect both from a "Sim Game".

So, back to the OP subject,
the rocket catch isn't a bad thing if its not happening 10xs per gm. I see some crazy catches on Sunday, but thats like a few 10xs per week combining all games played.
Its not the ultimate way to fix some deeper issues. At least some guys would be wowed for 3months!