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Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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Old 12-31-2011, 03:01 AM   #33
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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Originally Posted by feeq14
3- I dont know the exact connection, but the removal of Rocket catching pretty much coincides with the removal of tangible accurate physics in players. This is when we started seeing linebackers tipping passes all of the time as well as "mirror" CB coverage (both of these are admittedly much worse in NCAA). It is trying to cover up a major issue in realism in Madden/NCAA which is the lack of proper player physics.

The best case scenario to fix this is for EA to re calibrate player physics to make it more difficult for just any receiver to fight for the ball, and to allow corners to do the same, along with making passing more realistic with better trajectories and more incomplete passes based on accuracy and missed throws.

However there is another (more realistic) option. Give the receivers back their control, and give corners more animations to fight for jump balls. The problem with Rocket catching in the past is that the receiver would jump 3 feet in the air to get the ball and the Corner would just stand and put his arms up or something. They would never jump up to actually fight for the ball, they simply dont have the animations to do so. I never understood why EA didnt add a good 10 or so big jump swat animations for defensive backs where they can go up to contest a pass play. Clearly EA has already programmed "mirroring" AI for coverage, why not do the same for jump balls. This way we could at least have the illusion of control and attributes could mean something. In fact you could add another attribute for corners to reflect this ability like "ball skills" or "body control" or something.

Either way, EA has never fully catered to hardcore fans on any real level. We waited 5 years for next gen to get a revamped franchise mode. We waited 8 years for a tackling system that had pile up/break away animations, and a bunch more years for custom playbooks, better attributes, online franchise etc. I dont understand why EA would break a part of the game to (ineffectively) appease complaints by hardcore fans.












TLDR: I know rocket catching was broken, but they broke more things just to semi take it out the game. Put it back in as it was, and add more DB animations to combat it, or fix the games physics engine to make it less of an exploit. Only the most hardcore fans were really bothered by Rocket catching EA should recognize this and give people back control over the game instead of appeasing the fraction of super competitive players and online players who care about this and use it as an exploit cause at the end of the day they will find something else to exploit.
Rocket Catching didn't fix physics/player interactions before either. Its a deeper issue than this.
They don't respect the laws of physics in some major areas.
Once the new Madden team has some time to get dirty, they will HOPEFULLY get to the core of the problems.
I just don't belive bringing back some crazy animations will peak my interest for more than 3months.
I don't know about other guys but I don't play Madden for stats and simulation stats, if so, I would just stick to fantasy football and wouldn't be here posting about Madden and how it does or doesn't simulate a football game that I see on Sundays.
I guess by me being a football purist, I'm looking for more than a few improved interactions and some improved sim stats.
It begins and ends with gameplay, EA/Tiburon additions GL!

Last edited by dfos81; 12-31-2011 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 12-31-2011, 03:34 AM   #34
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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Originally Posted by KBLover
I still, to this day, play Football Pro '98. Being able to create my own plays from nothing but a blank field and putting together gameplans that dwarf what Madden calls "game planning" trumps any graphics deficiencies (and it had them). Not to mention, when it sims games, it actually calls plays, and you can see what each and every play did in the game log afterwords. THAT is big reason why I love the game. Heck, I even got myself Tecmo Super Bowl (NES version, no less) am having fun.

I love HC 09 - has nothing to do with animations.
But the OP does.

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Originally Posted by KBLover
Animations are not why I love or hate a football game or a sport game in general. If it was, I wouldn't play games like OOTP, Baseball Pro, or Football Mogul.

I have no idea why you brought up pre-game stuff. I don't remember saying anything about presentation.
I was thinking the same thing about animations and rocket catching vs these games mentioned above.
Its comparing apples and oranges.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
You can have physics and still have suctioning. In fact, they very well could use suctioning to create more "physics-based tackling" just like they did with Pro-Tak and having way too many tackles turn into "Pro-Tak moments". Heck, if that's a "back of the box feature" it is not beyond EA to go overboard with it so it can "show off" more. Fight for the Fumble seemed to fall into this category..
In fact, Pro tak was a fail.
Fight for fumble, fail.
Simply, they both failed.
Pro-tak failed b/c its wasn't a very good display of how physics should be displayed in a so called, sim football game. It was poorly implemented and didn't have the testing needed imo. I also disagree w/ the more suctioning needed view.

Fight for fumble was attempting to add more user control, which is good! Just poorly implemented in the physics/animations dpt.
So at least we can see the facts and understand that something else may be holding back Madden from being an EA product for future NFL sim games.

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Old 12-31-2011, 10:10 AM   #35
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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So again, your speaking of 2 different cans of fruit here.
Imo, EA needs to open both cans and improve upon the ingredients. Why can't one expect both from a "Sim Game".
I want both - but you're speaking as if physics is the only problem. I'm also saying that to have TRUE physics in a game, it must apply to EVERY physical action on the field, not just tackling and momentum. It has to apply just as much to how fast and hard a kicker swings his leg or like someone in another thread said with a 95 THP having to heave the ball like he was rubber armed. That's physics. 95 THP should have the muscle power to use a shorter, faster motion to make the ball travel the same distance as a 70 THP. It has to apply to how far a player can dive (how much power can his legs generate as well as his velocity vector and which direction he's trying to dive in to affect the behavior of the model). Everything.

I have just been saying it's both. We need both. Sticking physics on top of Madden as it is now would just make better looking less realistic results.

Stats ARE important to me, it's how I judge the realism of the game play. So I don't like the talk of "stats vs game play". Stats are the result of the game play. They don't oppose each other.

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Originally Posted by dfos81
But the OP does.

I was thinking the same thing about animations and rocket catching vs these games mentioned above.
Its comparing apples and oranges.
.

The whole point of mentioning those games was your "go back to those old games and I bet you get tired of the stale animations in them" and it was to say that, no, I don't, because my fun and admiration of those games goes beyond animations - and I don't need to "go back" to them because I still play them. Never left them.

FBPro '98 is more "sim" than Madden still is in my view with a more complex progression and game planning feature as well as designing your own play from scratch. The animations can be 70's quality and I'd still play the game to death.
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:06 AM   #36
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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I want both - but you're speaking as if physics is the only problem..
No, never said that. However, EA did mention something about what we are seeing on Sundays. I'm still watching games live, I guess I'm "Old School" or a football purist, whatever you wanna call me. I'm more interested in what the gameplay is on the field 1st. When I got the Madden demo I didn't go look at the players career stats 1st, I actually jumped into a game 1st. So whatever....

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
FBPro '98 is more "sim" than Madden still is in my view with a more complex progression and game planning feature as well as designing your own play from scratch. The animations can be 70's quality and I'd still play the game to death.
Sorry, I have to disagree.
Again, call me a football purist or whatever but I didn't start loving football b/c of stats, gameplans, etc. I love football more so b/c of what happens on the field of gameplay. The battles and intensity of whats happening on the field. Without the field and players, etc. You have no stats, gameplanning, progressions, or whatever it is that makes you love football.
I thought EA was going for more of a simulation of football being played on the field, not off of it.

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Old 12-31-2011, 05:53 PM   #37
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

I actually thought the catch animation itself was pretty realistic. The thing that made it cheese was the CB's reaction to it.

This all goes back to how unrealistic the WR/DB interaction is in Madden. The game needs some form of jostling. Not only would that make for more realistic catches and swats, but it would also make PI penalties matter again.

As for the RTP argument, I have a feeling that Madden might have some form of it in 13. This new team that they're putting together seems to get that...
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:21 PM   #38
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

I would not mind rocket catching if the game actually had some basic physics (either in the engine or manipulated via animations). The problem with rocket catching is that even if you take Troy Palamalu give him ten yards to get up to speed, and hit stick a guy at the peak of his jump he will still hold onto the ball over 50% of the time.

If the game would reward good timing on defense as much asit does on offense I would say ok. As it is I can still run curls all day long against man coverage and complete over 90% passes because timing on defense is near meaningless in forcing drops.

I think if ratings had more influence in handicapping the player to make the player have to play within the skills of his controlled player the game would be hands down better.
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:29 PM   #39
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

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Originally Posted by dfos81
When I got the Madden demo I didn't go look at the players career stats 1st, I actually jumped into a game 1st. So whatever....
I don't look at the player's career stats - but I use stats to see that LBs weren't getting enough tackles, etc, to judge the game play (they read and react poorly) and make adjustments.

The problems I see with Madden are more intellectual - players don't follow assignments, etc. Better physics won't make LBs read and react better, or actually give DBs coverage technique. It will make the LBs change directions more realistically and the tackling is better - but the actual deciphering of a play, just as important to what you see on Sundays, is still wrong.

I watch football every Sunday, Monday, Thursday, Saturday, and I see stuff technique-wise that just doesn't exist in Madden, and I don't think physics is going to make it all appear. Bad blocking with good physics is good looking bad blocking. EA has to program into the engine to have OL help each other and DL forcing it and trying to open gaps instead of seeking penetration, etc.
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Old 12-31-2011, 10:45 PM   #40
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Re: Why we need the return of "rocket catching"

Bottom line is that a physics engine isnt coming
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