QB Vision

[moneal2001]

the problem with a fps view is changing during a play. how would you change view after a pass or handoff. it was done in one of the 2k football games and was too clunky. also the dev costs are not worth the return for EA(the few that used it would prolly still buy the game without it.

now a cheaper idea like bringing back the original cone with a few changes, like its controls, would be a better investment from EA's standpoint if they were going to enhance passing in any way .

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by moneal2001

the problem with a fps view is changing during a play. how would you change view after a pass or handoff. it was done in one of the 2k football games and was too clunky. also the dev costs are not worth the return for EA(the few that used it would prolly still buy the game without it. now a cheaper idea like bringing back the original cone with a few changes, like its controls, would be a better investment from EA's standpoint if they were going to enhance passing in any way .

Yeah, I get what you are saying but I am not advocating for an exact first-person, helmet cam view like NFL2k had. I want something similar to BackBreaker or QB Club, a field level, over the shoulder like view. As far as switching between position goes, I am thinking having the camera/view zoom out and back in.

So on passes, the camera/view would zoom out as the ball leaves the QB's hand to allow for User control of the potential receiver, then zoom closer after the User takes control and on run plays, just start from the runners view at the LOS. Also the option for player lock, if a User chooses to just focus on controlling one player throughout a play and actually count on their 10 AI teammates, OMG, to perform.

Likewise on defense with a choice of player lock or a zoom out before switching to the closet defender, then zooming back in. Picture before the snap, User controlling a deep Safety with a field level, over the shoulder view, dictated by their AWR rating, then the offense runs the ball. So you press the A button once, relinquishing User control of any player, which zooms out the camera/view, until hitting the A button again to take User control of the nearest defender, zooming the camera/view back in.

I hope that made sense because like I stated before, I have put entirely too much thought into this. lol.

It would definitely take tons of practice and true User skill to manually control multiple players in a play or to feel confident enough in AI teammates to make plays if using player lock. Every play instantly becomes it's own mini-game and I doubt people would be so quick to skip through replays due to wanting to actually review the previous play. I think gamers would be surprisingly immersed in the challenge.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Personally, I have no interest in having a control set just to move the QB's head.

I can't say that I often agree with you TNT, but this may be one of the times that I do. I've always been an advocate for having to manually control the QBs head as adding a layer of depth to the gameplay. I don't know that I feel like that anymore.

Don't get me wrong -- I know that QBs in real life look off their targets. But it's such a fine detail in playing the QB position that I don't know that it has to be represented in a videogame (at least not from the "God view" perspective in which Madden is played).

We're already making reads with our human eyes. Essentially, we would be doing it twice with a QB-vision like mechanic. The receiver-specific pump fake could accomplish the same thing.

There's arguments to be made on both sides.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I don't begrudge anyone for wanting Madden to play "their way" but that's not simulation or NFL authentic, it's customization. The problem is, Madden keeps being created as a customized NFL game, instead of as a NFL simulation, with custom options.

How is it not sim or authentic? That's why I mentioned in the other thread it comes down to the experience that the user wants.

I want a simulation experience, but I like mine from the broadcast perspective. Same goes for all sports games that I play.

Some people desire an on-the-field experience. That's sim too, but those people would much rather feel like they're playing on the field.

Neither is right or wrong. I think that's why most games try to hit it in the middle. NBA2K plays great from their broadcast cam, but the 2K cam gives you a broadcast feel + on court experience. Ditto Madden standard cam...

[Big FN Deal]

@Rgiles, I hear you bruh but that ain't simulation. lol

I am honestly not trying to be a tool and for the longest time I wasn't an advocate of a more true to life view either. However, regardless of what any of us wants, playing a sports game from an unrealistic POV is not a simulation. Like TNT often states, Madden is about playing the game, not watching it, so playing Madden from a god or broadcast view is a great customization option but it doesn't simulate playing football.

I don't want the other views removed, I just want the game designed as true to life, NFL authentic as possible and the options included to play that way, whenever possible.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I am honestly not trying to be a tool and for the longest time I wasn't an advocate of a more true to life view either. However, regardless of what any of us wants, playing a sports game from an unrealistic POV is not a simulation. Like TNT often states, Madden is about playing the game, not watching it, so playing Madden from a god or broadcast view is a great customization option but it doesn't simulate playing football

Simulation is subjective in some sense, so I feel an 'agree to disagree' coming on but I digress.

It is a simulation in that the broadcast perspective is a 'simulation' of what I and most NFL fans see on Sundays (as in watching sports on TV). What Madden is attempting to simulate is how you watch games on TV.

If you want an on the field simulation, might you find a suitable game in Madden 06-08 LOL. I'm joking obviously, but if you want to simulate being on the field, then certainly you don't want any of the bells and whistles of broadcast presentation like those early Maddens.

You just created a thread on presentation which is an indication that you would want some form of presentation in your desired on-the-field experience. Does that mean you don't want simulation b/c certainly players on the field don't hear commentary nor see instant replays and the like?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@Rgiles, I hear you bruh but that ain't simulation. lol I am honestly not trying to be a tool and for the longest time I wasn't an advocate of a more true to life view either. However, regardless of what any of us wants, playing a sports game from an unrealistic POV is not a simulation. Like TNT often states, Madden is about playing the game, not watching it, so playing Madden from a god or broadcast view is a great customization option but it doesn't simulate playing football. I don't want the other views removed, I just want the game designed as true to life, NFL authentic as possible and the options included to play that way, whenever possible.

I must say, I loved Madden from the beginning because of the perspective from the booth. Beyond the obvious reasons for loving football (toughness, speed, strength, cunning, and BIG HITS) the X's and O's of the game thrill me more than any other aspect. Playing Madden from the coordinator's booth (NOT GOD VIEW) illustrated something different about Madden from the very beginning of the series that suggested that this series was NOT for the casual football fan (which I was in '91).

That said, not everyone enjoys football from the same angle that I do. I love play design, the history of strategic evolution, and how coaches get the most out of their personnel. I'm not sure what other reasons there are to love football (unless you're a chick that likes seeing big dudes in tight pants, in which case you gotta watch in another room...lol).

The issue isn't whether the camera view is ideal for simulation... It's perfect for simulating the coordinator's experience as if he could remote control his players... Madden's camera angle doesn't do much to simulate the player's experience nor the spectator's experience. Dare I say, it was NEVER SUPPOSED TO.

The angle tells us that we are simulating an offensive and defensive coordinator with the ability to directly 'possess' and control players during the play - something that isn't possible in real life. When a game simulates football through this method - it's not simulating real life - it's merely simulating the strategic and executive aspects of football...

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Simulation is subjective in some sense, so I feel an 'agree to disagree' coming on but I digress. It is a simulation in that the broadcast perspective is a 'simulation' of what I and most NFL fans see on Sundays (as in watching sports on TV). What Madden is attempting to simulate is how you watch games on TV. If you want an on the field simulation, might you find a suitable game in Madden 06-08 LOL. I'm joking obviously, but if you want to simulate being on the field, then certainly you don't want any of the bells and whistles of broadcast presentation like those early Maddens. You just created a thread on presentation which is an indication that you would want some form of presentation in your desired on-the-field experience. Does that mean you don't want simulation b/c certainly players on the field don't hear commentary nor see instant replays and the like?

LOL. I feel like we are to respectful people that can have this discussion, so here goes.

The difference between the bells and whistles of presentation being present still constituting a simulation as opposed to playing from a broadcast or god view is that the presentation does not affect the way the game is actually played.

The god view in Madden and broadcast view in other sports games, fundamentally changes the way these sports are played and alters their originally inherent challenge.

Allowing gamers to pick up and play Madden from a god or broadcast view is ideal for creating a NFL branded video game but not for representing the inherent individual or team challenge of the NFL needed to for it to be a NFL simulation video game.

[PGaither84]

On last gen there already was a toggle option. On the original XBox, you held the RT and pushed the button of who you wanted to throw to. Receivers were on all of the face buttons, which at the time included a black and white button. Now we have the Left and right bumpers along with Left and right triggers, which is much better.

I didn't like the look of a yellow highlighter on the field from a presentation stand point, but the feature was pure sim. I thought TNT didn't like the look of it. I can't understand why he didn't like the simulation aspect of it.

Quote:

I've often said that my QB's head is nothing more than a helmet holder

You know I respect you TNT, but that... THAT... is total crap. It is SO important. As a player who is knowledgeable about football and knows his offense and scheme really well, it can be difficult to separate myself from the QB I am controlling, but you kind of have to. Not every HB is Bo Jackson able to run as fast as anyone in the league and but tackles like he were Earl Campbell. You have to play to your player's strengths and weaknesses, and QB should be no different. Sure, I can play like Peyton manning, but my QB shouldn't... you know, unless he is Peyton Manning

With practice... and I am sure TNT is all in favor of players practicing... I was able to get really good with the cone. I had to use Alex Smith, so I had to get better with it. You were able to set your primary receiver pre-snap, or could center it with the A button. On draw plays, it was centered by default. Most people didn't know that, so if I saw the snap and the cone was centered, I bit on the draw until they showed me they knew better. I also used to start with it centered a lot for that very same reason. Another reason I started with the cone centered was so I could snap to a receiver on either side of the field faster, including my TE for quick passes.

It required an extra button press, to hold the trigger and press the button of the receiver you wanted, and then the throw, but it really wasn't that bad. With today's slower game speed, it should be even easier. Again, what I didn't like was the flashlight/highlighter look. I don't know how else they could do it, but i would like to see it come back... then again there are a lot of things I would like to see in Madden.