QB Vision

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

In the NFL no single person gets to coach, sign, draft, play, and spectate... But Madden is a football fantasy (not be confused with fantasy football) where we can do all of these things... Ultimately, the only way to simulate the NFL adequately is to rob the user of the ability to fulfill the responsibilities of this variety of roles. Ask yourself - do we really want Madden to simulate the limited control of each - or do we want the ability to control as much (or as little) as we want. I choose control. Later

Huh? You completely lost me with this or you completely misunderstood my post. How does having a realistically limited field level gameplay view option "rob the user of the ability to fulfill the responsibilities of this variety of roles"? lol

Being the coordinator/coach while simultaneously controlling the players on the field, has been enjoyable enough for the past 20 years but it is not simulating playing football.

I want the OPTION of performing multiple roles in Madden, one at the time, in the same game mode(franchise, online, play now, etc), in as realistic a way as possible, including controlling A player on the field. If other people don't, that's cool and I am not advocating they be forced to. However, I completely disagree with anyone claiming controlling players on the field from a coordinator or broadcast view, is simulating playing football or most any other sport. That's tantamount to playing a board game, with NFL branding and moving graphically animated pieces.

I am personally ready for a more NFL authentic challenge in Madden and I think a more realistic player controlled gameplay view will help offer that.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Huh? You completely lost me with this or you completely misunderstood my post. How does having a realistically limited field level gameplay view option "rob the user of the ability to fulfill the responsibilities of this variety of roles"? lol Being the coordinator/coach while simultaneously controlling the players on the field, has been enjoyable enough for the past 20 years but it is not simulating playing football. I want the OPTION of performing multiple roles in Madden, one at the time, in the same game mode(franchise, online, play now, etc), in as realistic a way as possible, including controlling A player on the field. If other people don't, that's cool and I am not advocating they be forced to. However, I completely disagree with anyone claiming controlling players on the field from a coordinator or broadcast view, is simulating playing football or most any other sport. That's tantamount to playing a board game, with NFL branding and moving graphically animated pieces. I am personally ready for a more NFL authentic challenge in Madden and I think a more realistic player controlled gameplay view will help offer that.

Perhaps 'robbing the user" was inflammatory and could have been stated another way - but I stand by the statement. Not even Jerry Jones gets to pursue the range of roles that Madden players enjoy (he should fire his GM, by the way). Jerry Jones doesn't call plays, throw passes, kick field goals, or make tackles. Simulating his experience would arguably make a horrible VIDEO GAME.

Simply put - It is IMPOSSIBLE to simulate an NFL experience when one person is charged with the roles of the ownership, administration, coaching staff, players, and spectators when there is no equivalent in reality.

To suggest that the camera has any relation to whether Madden is a simulation or not is silly. We can agree that moving the camera changes how we perceive - nothing more. It doesn't change the football, nor the quality of the football.

Is a camera in the player's helmet more simulated than a camera placed in the stands when it comes to simulation? Not at all. Whether we 'see' the game from the field, sideline, booth, or the blimp... Same Football. We could put a camera anywhere in space and experience the game differently without it effecting the value of the simulation...

But that's the hitch... If you're a football player wanting the experience of being ON THE FIELD, you need a 1st person camera. If you want an experience of being in the booth, you need an aerial camera placed about where the Madden camera is. If you want a spectator experience similar to watching TV, you need a camera mounted high on the sidelines.

To suggest that the camera is the reason Madden isn't simulating the NFL is silly. There might be many reasons Madden isn't a good simulation, but the camera isn't one of them. It's only relevant when we consider how the perspective relates to the how we perceive the simulation. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

To provide a true simulation experience, the camera is irrelevant. The assumption of roles, on the other hand, is uber-important.

That said, I have no problem with giving individuals the ability to move the camera to a position they feel gives them a better PERCEPTION of the football that is simulated - but there is no such thing as one guy that does everything outside of video games.

I'd prefer to keep wearing multiple hats - with the camera where it is. Jerry Jones, eat your heart out!

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Perhaps 'robbing the user" was inflammatory and could have been stated another way - but I stand by the statement. Not even Jerry Jones gets to pursue the range of roles that Madden players enjoy (he should fire his GM, by the way). Jerry Jones doesn't call plays, throw passes, kick field goals, or make tackles. Simulating his experience would arguably make a horrible VIDEO GAME. Simply put - It is IMPOSSIBLE to simulate an NFL experience when one person is charged with the roles of the ownership, administration, coaching staff, players, and spectators when there is no equivalent in reality. To suggest that the camera has any relation to whether Madden is a simulation or not is silly. We can agree that moving the camera changes how we perceive - nothing more. It doesn't change the football, nor the quality of the football. Is a camera in the player's helmet more simulated than a camera placed in the stands when it comes to simulation? Not at all. Whether we 'see' the game from the field, sideline, booth, or the blimp... Same Football. We could put a camera anywhere in space and experience the game differently without it effecting the value of the simulation... But that's the hitch... If you're a football player wanting the experience of being ON THE FIELD, you need a 1st person camera. If you want an experience of being in the booth, you need an aerial camera placed about where the Madden camera is. If you want a spectator experience similar to watching TV, you need a camera mounted high on the sidelines. To suggest that the camera is the reason Madden isn't simulating the NFL is silly. There might be many reasons Madden isn't a good simulation, but the camera isn't one of them. It's only relevant when we consider how the perspective relates to the how we perceive the simulation. HUGE DIFFERENCE. To provide a true simulation experience, the camera is irrelevant. The assumption of roles, on the other hand, is uber-important. That said, I have no problem with giving individuals the ability to move the camera to a position they feel gives them a better PERCEPTION of the football that is simulated - but there is no such thing as one guy that does everything outside of video games. I'd prefer to keep wearing multiple hats - with the camera where it is. Jerry Jones, eat your heart out! Later

I am not sure what's getting lost in translation here but the stuff you are stating about the gameplay view for controlling players on the field not being relevant to Madden simulating playing football, as a player, is just not true. Our gameplay view when performing a role in Madden inherently affects our actions.

There is a reason why in the NFL, the coach/coordinator can only talk into the QB's helmet from the sideline for a limited time before the audio feed is cut. That reason is the game is meant to be played by the players on the field, literally ON THE FIELD and not the sideline. What we have currently and for 20+ years overall, is some futuristic "Real Steel" version of NFL football. In the NFL and most any sport, the limitations of players on the field, including their view, is an essential part of why they offer such a enjoyable challenge. However, in Madden, plenty of those limitations are removed or watered down and the User controlled player gameplay view is yet another example but not unique to Madden.

Also, you keep reasserting how Madden allows us to control multiple roles as if I am disputing that fact or advocating for that to change but I am NOT. I have clearly stated, I like the fact that Madden allows the User to perform multiple roles AND I would like to have the option to have each role be as NFL "sim"/authentic as possible, including when performing the role of A player on the virtual field.

In Franchise mode Madden does not have me performing the GM position at the same time I am performing the player position in contract negotiations or drafting players, nor performing as the owner while also the coach when hiring staff. In online/offline single game modes and Franchise, Madden does not have me performing the coach/coordinator position calling plays while at the same time performing the player position on the sideline and the same should be true vice versa when executing the play out on the field.

Yes, we wear many hats in Madden and I think that's great but we should be able to wear them, one at a time, not simultaneously. The whole notion of performing as a player on the field from a coordinator's or spectator's view is counter productive to simulating that particular role or wearing that "hat" and in contrast to the way the other roles are able to be performed from their relative perspectives.

To put it as plain as I can, Madden allows me to control the GM, coach/coordinator, owner and player roles, one at the time, from their relative perspective EXCEPT for the on the field gameplay view when User controlling A player and I want an option, aside from Superstar mode, to change that.

[wheelman990]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

I've seen some posts about things that have been introduced in other games and that they should bring back the vision cone (which I like the idea hated the implement). The one thing I've been thinking of lately that would be interesting and make passing much more of a simulation is instead of being able to see the entire field, if the camera zoomed into the QB as the ball was hiked. Not to a major degree or anything but just enough so that you would see a good part of the field but not the entirety as you do now. Now I know they have the zoomed camera angle but here is what would make it interesting, instead of the vision cone, you had the right stick move the camera from left to right and even slightly up the field (cause to be honest I hardly ever see anyone use the right stick in the pocket). What it could ultimately do is make it so that you make your reads one by one instead of watching the entire play like a spectator. They could also implement it by adding player movement so that when you turn the QBs head it actually turns to that part of the field and in that sense you could watch the QBs "eyes" so to speak. That way there isn't the arcadey vision cone (which lets be honest it was very arcade like) and it instead turns it to a more realistic QB experience. I don't know maybe it's just me that thought that way and it may be because I was playing a FPS right before I went to play some football but I thought it would just be an interesting mechanic to add. What do you guys think?

I said this years ago on here.....however, you have to change the camera pan button to the shoulder r1/l1 buttons so its easy to press the receiver button as well. With a zoom cam like madden 10 or 11(tweaked) you wouldnt have the press l1 or r1 all the times. I'd say you would see enough of the feild to hit most routes. Also, qb vision rating could give you slightly more or less zoom. This would really make a difference with qb vision, and still give complete control from the user based on that qb's real ability.

The hard part would be getting the swivel cam right. It would have to swivel by keeping the center point and not just move left or right. Not easy to do Im sure. just play around with that idea in a replay custom cam once.

Its a great idea though. And as a option could make things interesting for sure

[TNT713]

@BigFN - The ability to perform role(s) an environment that is not real, simultaneous or otherwise, is merely one reason we play video games instead actually doing the activities we are simulating.

We prefer different perspectives... No need to argue about what we prefer. That said, I support the use of custom cameras - I just would not move mine.

@wheelman - You touched on two of the many problems with QB Vision.

The first being the interface to move the camera... Given the limited number of buttons on the controller, it doesn't make sense to map a head turn to two of the buttons or use a toggle button when the same actions can be mapped to a button seamlessly using the ONE BUTTON were already used to using to perform an action as intuitively as possible.

In the initial QB Vision implementation, holding the toggle button required us to tap the button twice anyway - WHY HAVE A TOGGLE?

Next, the vision range of EVERY QB should be practically identical. The average human has 135 degrees of periphery. With a helmet it will be a little smaller. In the first incarnation of QB Vision, some of the QB's had vision cones smaller than 60 degrees making them more like stroke victims needing immediate medical treatment than professional athletes playing a football game.

I think it's time to republish "QB Vision is Turning Heads" to dissect why QB Vision was initially ill-conceived and poorly implemented in it's first incarnation.

Lastly, lets not forget that QB Vision was a 2-year project that began after Madden 2004. Mike Vick ran WILD against defenses because the offense had hot-route abilities and the defense did not. There were so many complaints about Vick specifically, that QB Vision was intended to hinder scrambling by adding a layer of cumbersome actions to prevent players from delivering accurate passes while on the run. Unfortunately, the system didn't change anyone's behavior nor did it prevent cross-field passes from being delivered accurately.

I'll post a link to the paper - I think I quoted MMChris from a thread before OS and MaddenMania merged. If EA can solve the problems with QB Vision's 1st implementation, it might be worth using... But it must be intuitive and seamlessly integrated into the current control set to be worthy of the Madden series.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Not that head movement isn't important in a real game, but I didn't care to have "NECK" control being more important than passing...

Even with the "flashlight", you still had to throw an accurate ball, so I'd still say that pass was more important than the look. It just kept you from doing "no-look 50 yd bombs" which, of course, no QB can do in the real game.

Plus, like you said, it's important in the real game - so I'd like to see it more important in the virtual game (Madden). It is called the passing game and part of executing it successfully is not staring down receivers.

Big FN Deal mentioned highlighting receivers your QB could see - or only showing those icons the QB can see. I'd prefer the Tecmo Bowl indicator and just a pass button and a switch receiver button (and AWR determines how fast QBs can change targets - doesn't get much more simple than a two button interface, imo)

But there should be something indicating blind spots in a QB's vision. This is important for pass rushing too. So often, the QB can get the ball off right as the blind side rush is about to get him. While it happens partly by play design (it executed faster than the rush got there) and sometimes by a QB with good "feel" or "pocket presence", it happens much too often, especially for an average or worse QB.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

It just kept you from doing "no-look 50 yd bombs" which, of course, no QB can do in the real game.

That's the thing though... It didn't prevent 'no-look' cross-field 50 yard bombs. Those throws were still being made and completed.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

That's the thing though... It didn't prevent 'no-look' cross-field 50 yard bombs. Those throws were still being made and completed. Later

Then it sounds like another case where EA should have refined the feature (put more of a Accuracy penalty - if not drop it to zero) instead of completely removing it.