There's something(s) OUT of WHACK in the DEEP and MIDDLE PASSING GAME

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes.

Yeah, the differentiation of ability of non-physical skills is lacking in a lot of places, imo. I don't know anything about NCAA - never played one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=67s This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down.

Actually, the defender reacted very quickly. He just couldn't jump up high enough/exact time to tip the pass - that, imo, is a pass trajectory issue more than a too-fast-reactions issue.

He really didn't have time to really get his jump, he could only make a quick "hop" to try to tip the pass (probably a pass velocity issue too). If you notice, he had nearly perfect timing (if he could have gotten high enough, it would have been tipped, so I don't think it's a reaction issue), it's a jump height/pass trajectory scale issue, imo.

LBs react too slow, imo, a lot of times, actually. Under a certain reaction slider, they'll literally watch a ball carrier go by. Literally.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

I had to limit myself with it. I used it like challenges, I gave myself 2 per game. Otherwise, I might never have gotten through a game of M09...

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Actually, the defender reacted very quickly. He just couldn't jump up high enough/exact time to tip the pass - that, imo, is a pass trajectory issue more than a too-fast-reactions issue. He really didn't have time to really get his jump, he could only make a quick "hop" to try to tip the pass (probably a pass velocity issue too). If you notice, he had nearly perfect timing (if he could have gotten high enough, it would have been tipped, so I don't think it's a reaction issue), it's a jump height/pass trajectory scale issue, imo.

Part of my argument has been not just when a LB reacts, but what kind of reaction. As you noted, he didn't have time to really react, he could only get a quick hop in. In Madden, the LB would get a max vertical leap before the ball even gets to him.

It's kind of like if someone were to just throw a ball at your face right when you walked into the room and you weren't expecting it. You may react quickly, but only with aligator arms, or just enough to maybe deflect the ball. If a Madden football player was in that same situation, he'd catch the ball as if he knew it was coming and where it was going.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

Part of my argument has been not just when a LB reacts, but what kind of reaction. As you noted, he didn't have time to really react, he could only get a quick hop in. In Madden, the LB would get a max vertical leap before the ball even gets to him. It's kind of like if someone were to just throw a ball at your face right when you walked into the room and you weren't expecting it. You may react quickly, but only with aligator arms, or just enough to maybe deflect the ball. If a Madden football player was in that same situation, he'd catch the ball as if he knew it was coming and where it was going.

Yeah, probably input reading (it's reacting to your button press instead of what's happening on the field). Once the button is pushed, all defenders know to "get ready for the pass". So it would be like if that LB in the video was already getting ready to jump before Manning starts to windup (and he knew that Manning wasn't throwing to the HB underneath).

You can't confuse defenders (which also would slow reactions). Running someone underneath should have the LB thinking "he might go there" all the way until the ball actually flies.

I do think if passes had more velocity on them, it would also help. Just seems like any pass that's not a bullet pass just goes too slowly. Strong armed QBs should FIRE the ball in there with any trajectory except the most touch of passes (like fades and similar).

What's really funny about this is that you can actually "alligator arm" your own receivers. I tend to do this too often to my HB/FB in flat - throw it too hard and it hits him on the side of the helmet while he's turning around.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

You can't always apply actual football to Madden, for the simple fact that aspects that work in life do not work in Madden. That's because factors that exist in life don't exist in Madden. This fact has nothing to do with skill level of any kind. The reaction time of linebackers is not up for debate really. Elite athletes or not, in Madden and even NCAA, players are poor as 40 OVR react with lightning reflexes. There's a problem when a linebacker can react and swat down a ball that's been thrown 3 yards away from him and within UNDER one second he's able to cover those 3 yards and make a play on it. Not just get finger tips on it, I'm talking two palms. When cornerbacks are capable of just stopping (no, not canceling momentum and beating a route, I mean just STOPPING) and turning around immediately to beat a curl route, there are issues. These are not subjective opinions. These are measurable and real. Last year, there was a thread about super linebackers being back, and I posted 4 videos that demonstrated how, in the NFL linebackers reacted to throws around them and over them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=67s This is a great example. In Madden/NCAA, the LB picks that ball off or cleanly swats it down. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=13s That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden. I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

A few things... First, I'm faster and more agile than most 38 year olds and have a technique that allows me to make an instant 180 degree turn from a full speed run. I simply run fast and plant my lead foot while drop my center into a lunge as I torque my body to come out running in the opposite direction. First time I did it, I was being chased by someone with equivalent speed. When he reached out his hand to grab me, I dropped and turned. When I looked back, he was still rolling. That said, I have the body mass of a wad of paper (less than 150lbs) so take it for what it's worth. LOL

And BackTrack shouldn't be confused with Rewind. Backtrack was a feature that replayed the previous play with telestration and commentary to break down the previous play while Rewind allowed you to actually erase and replay the down. IIRC, Backtrack was only available for one year of Madden while Rewind was available for 2.

BUT... The pass Peyton threw to Collie is possible in Madden. But just like real life, it's not easy. It takes skill to get the ball up and down like Peyton threw it on Madden - but it is possible.

I think part of the issue is that we assume the circle is the best place to catch the ball because when Madden debuted on Genesis - that's how the circle indicator was introduced. Since the player models and movements have changed, the circle isn't the best place to catch the ball - it merely represents the point at which the ball is even with a receiver's numbers. Without this basic information, it is impossible for the USER to locate the ball properly.

Later

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0Ydz...tailpage#t=13s That throw, over a LB, is nearly impossible in Madden. I loved backtrack because I used it as the "oh BS!" tool. When I saw utter crap happen (like players phasing through each other), I backtracked it to cancel it out. It just drove me nuts to see it. Madden 09 REALLY needed it.

Ok this is something that isn't a result of a super LB but a poorly designed play in Madden. The colts are running your classic drive concept which is a ton of books in Madden. The difference is that the Colts run the dig route 15 yards downfield where as most of the Drive concepts in Madden are cut off at about 8 meaning that the player running the drag and the player running the Dig are only separated by about 3 yards which just ruins the opportunity that arises when the defensive player takes the drag. If you smart route the out route so that it runs slightly deeper (12 yards) then the throw becomes much more manageable.

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

A few things... First, I'm faster and more agile than most 38 year olds and have a technique that allows me to make an instant 180 degree turn from a full speed run. I simply run fast and plant my lead foot while drop my center into a lunge as I torque my body to come out running in the opposite direction. First time I did it, I was being chased by someone with equivalent speed. When he reached out his hand to grab me, I dropped and turned. When I looked back, he was still rolling. That said, I have the body mass of a wad of paper (less than 150lbs) so take it for what it's worth. LOL

Being 6'1" and 185 lbs, I can't quite make that kind of cut. That being said, I've played hockey against guys who are just super small, and they are in fact just crazy-light on their feet. They pay for it, too. >:)

Quote:

I think part of the issue is that we assume the circle is the best place to catch the ball because when Madden debuted on Genesis - that's how the circle indicator was introduced. Since the player models and movements have changed, the circle isn't the best place to catch the ball - it merely represents the point at which the ball is even with a receiver's numbers. Without this basic information, it is impossible for the USER to locate the ball properly. Later

I don't really want to get into a stick skills kind of debate, because I'm not the kind of gamer to take control of the receiver. The point, for me, is that the CPU needs to be able to handle this. And, I'll venture to say, this is going to be true for the majority of Madden gamers. Next thing we know, we're going to be discussing rocket catches.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

Being 6'1" and 185 lbs, I can't quite make that kind of cut. That being said, I've played hockey against guys who are just super small, and they are in fact just crazy-light on their feet. They pay for it, too. >

LMAO - reminds me of a time I played 11-on-11 dorm vs. dorm pickup game I played in college an NC A&T in Greensboro. We played right outside the women's dorm and cafeteria on a Saturday and had a crowd of at least 300 watching us. Everyone assumed that because I was so tiny (back then 5'6" and about 125lbs) that I couldn't play. Back then I could throw a spiral 60+ yards and hit a snail in the eye, ran a 4.5, and could cut on a dime in one step and leave change...

As you can imagine, I talk face-to-face with the same attitude you see in my posts... Which puts a HUGE bullseye on your back when people can finally take a legal shot at you.

In the game I picked off a pass and shook a few dudes out of their jocks before being snatched off the ground, overhead pressed about 7 feet in the air by a member of the varsity football team, and slammed to the ground to the sound of everyone going "OHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!"

I wasn't expected to get up, but I did. Not too fast though... Pop up too fast and everyone knows it REALLY HURT. Twas the first of several malicious hits I took that day from people weighing 230+. I payed for it, but it was the last time I had to earn respect as a football player.

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I don't really want to get into a stick skills kind of debate, because I'm not the kind of gamer to take control of the receiver. The point, for me, is that the CPU needs to be able to handle this. And, I'll venture to say, this is going to be true for the majority of Madden gamers. Next thing we know, we're going to be discussing rocket catches.

I strongly recommend user catching to everyone with fingers.

I used to be among the people that let the CPU catch... Til DnA victimized me in an online game and put me on blast for a lack of defensive user skills in Madden '04. He said that he simply found the man I was controlling and threw the ball right at me - lost 38-7 and I'll NEVER FORGET IT.

I'm the type of gamer who never wants to lose the same way twice... I've been user controlling players ever since on both sides of the ball. I refuse to lose because of the CPU - I only trust MYSELF to make the plays I know should be made. Ever since, I've improved my win percentage every year... Back then I won about 27% - now I win almost 60%.

Like I said, I never want to lose the same way twice.

Later

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I strongly recommend user catching to everyone with fingers. I used to be among the people that let the CPU catch... Til DnA victimized me in an online game and put me on blast for a lack of defensive user skills in Madden '04. He said that he simply found the man I was controlling and threw the ball right at me - lost 38-7 and I'll NEVER FORGET IT. I'm the type of gamer who never wants to lose the same way twice... I've been user controlling players ever since on both sides of the ball. I refuse to lose because of the CPU - I only trust MYSELF to make the plays I know should be made. Ever since, I've improved my win percentage every year... Back then I won about 27% - now I win almost 60%. Like I said, I never want to lose the same way twice. Later

I'm offline franchise only. I just don't play online. I'm okay with losing a game because a wide receiver didn't make the right route or attempt. To me, that's just reason to find a better player. But to each their own, I know some guys are all about stick all the time. Some guys just play coach mode.