Is using another team's playbook "Not Honorable"? Intense Office Debate

[Pascal1423]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaltonGreen

So heres the Backdrop Story... Played coworker in Madden12, Bengals vs. Cowboys using their respective playbooks. First Game, I (The Bengals), lost to my coworker (The Cowboys) 41-25. We then play a second time a week later.... I change my playbook to San Francisco's Defense Playbook while keeping Bengals offensive playbook... Second Game, I Win 24-2 and Tony Romo throws 5 Int's and my coworker completed 3 passes combined to his WR's. He's devistated. A week later after tons of smack talk every day in the office between games...We play again.... Game 3, I use San Francisco Defensive playbook and win 21-0 and my coworker quit in the 3rd QTR!! Room throws 3 INT's Here is the situation: My Coworker is saying that the playbook and the scheme's improve the players with (zone blitzes and coverages) and give me a sizable advantage over him. He also says that i should not have to use another team's playbook and that i am cheating. All input is welcomed as we continue to try and solve this very heated office debate....

Hey guys, I'm the "co-worker" that this debate is about. I'm not sure y he was trying to hide this from me........(weird...lol).

Anyways, Let me first start off by saying that I never once said he was "Cheating". I said it is a "like" cheating because you are gaining a big advantage by switching to (one of the best defensive playbooks in the league). I told him numerous times that I did not think he was cheating...that is ridiculous. I've been playing madden for years and consider myself a very decent player. I find it very funny that the first game we played, I crushed him 41-25 with Romo throwing for 395 yds, 4 tds and 0 ints with like a 75% completion percentage. (it was 41-17 with 30 secs left and he scored a td and 2-point conversion in garbage time).

Anyway, I come in the next day and he says "Oh im gonna change some stuff up, dont you worry". So I say, "ok no problem man". Then the next time we play he uses the niners playbook...... I'm not one of those guys who changes the playbook around....It would be great to use the Steelers defensive playbook but I am the Cowboys and I dnt run the Steelers playbook, that is an advantage IMO. The Cowboys playbooks arent that good but I work with what I got. That 2nd game crushes me 24-2 and almost every pass i throw up gets picked (5 to be exact). Then our 3rd game we just played, same thing (3 picks).....he was beating me 21-0 as I quit the game. Also, I never quit the game but that just infuriated me like crazy.

So that is my whole issue: He says the playbooks dont matter. And my response to him was "obviously its does if he changed it to the Niners playbook so he could gain his advantage". He said he always plays with the Niners playbook but when we first played he picked the Bengals playbook cause he wanted to play "straight up". And then once he saw I can play, he changed it to the Niners playbook. Just sayin. Those are my 2 cents, I know you can change the playbooks but there is something to be said about someone who uses his own team's playbook and can win the game.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pascal1423

Those are my 2 cents, I know you can change the playbooks but there is something to be said about someone who uses his own team's playbook and can win the game.

What's there to be said about someone who uses his own team's playbook and can win the game, other then "Well he can use his own team's playbook and win the game"? Use the playbook that fits the team you use, I really don't get what's the problem with that.

It's not like those playbooks are especially "sim" or anything, they're just an arbitrary collection of plays that the designers thought "Oh well we think that's something this team would run", and often they are ridiculously wrong on that. I mean, the Patriots playbook this year has been a 3-4 even though the majority of plays the "real" Patriots have run on defensive used a 4 man front.

It even went so far that they changed Mayo's position to OLB, correctly, because that's what he plays on the field in a 4-3 base defense, but then they keep the 3-4 playbook so Mayo's mostly lined up as a 3-4 OLB... yeah, right, I don't think I've EVER seen Mayo rushing from the edge in real life.

My point being: Playbooks are educated guesses at best, simply wrong at worst. Maybe he just had a bad game and made some mistakes on your first matchup and fixed those on your following games? I can tell you that I have often faced the same team twice in one season (obviously...) and those two matchups have played out VERY differently even though the same teams were using the same playbooks.

[dirtguru]

Quote: Originally Posted by wEEman33

Madden's custom playbooks would be a great feature if it wasn't insanely limited in the number of plays/formations you can use. I don't understand why Madden playbooks are so limited when you can literally put every play that's in the game -- totaling around 2,000 plays -- into your custom playbooks for All Pro Football 2K8.

OMG, 2000 plays.....Waaaaaay to many choices for me!
If you are able to succesfully use all of the plays you must be quite the formidable online opponent

I have a copy 2006 Holmgren/Seahawks Off playbook that contains something like 400 plays. I have not thoroughly studied it but I can say that many of the plays are variations of each other, pass routes breaking at different points and different blocking assignments.

I have been told that most NFL off playbooks contain somewhere between 300 to 400 plays, most closer to 300.

I feel that Madden playbooks contains enough formations and package possibilities, many of which are flawed and in some cases downright incorrect.

As far as OP question, NFL coaches and coordinaters leave one team for another all the time taking there scheme with them. Texans add Wade Phillips as D coordinater, huge improvement in Texans D, no doubt playbook is very similar to Cowboys 34. May not be realistic as far as 2011 Bengals playbook but theres no rule in football that says Bengals can't use 34 defense.
Play him again using Cowboys playbook? Base 34 pretty much the same as 49ers and better Bengals DBs should make Nickel and Dime packages lethal.

I'm with cusegirl, "tell him to step his game up".

[dirtguru]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

That's kind of funny, because when I use a 4-3, I always come back to the Giants playbook sooner or later, IMHO the best 4-3 playbook in the game, if only it had a regular Dime package it would be perfect.

You can add a regular dime package too. Using Giants playbook, just has to be saved as a custom playbook under a different name.

[thbends]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

What's there to be said about someone who uses his own team's playbook and can win the game, other then "Well he can use his own team's playbook and win the game"? Use the playbook that fits the team you use, I really don't get what's the problem with that. It's not like those playbooks are especially "sim" or anything, they're just an arbitrary collection of plays that the designers thought "Oh well we think that's something this team would run", and often they are ridiculously wrong on that. I mean, the Patriots playbook this year has been a 3-4 even though the majority of plays the "real" Patriots have run on defensive used a 4 man front. It even went so far that they changed Mayo's position to OLB, correctly, because that's what he plays on the field in a 4-3 base defense, but then they keep the 3-4 playbook so Mayo's mostly lined up as a 3-4 OLB... yeah, right, I don't think I've EVER seen Mayo rushing from the edge in real life. My point being: Playbooks are educated guesses at best, simply wrong at worst. Maybe he just had a bad game and made some mistakes on your first matchup and fixed those on your following games? I can tell you that I have often faced the same team twice in one season (obviously...) and those two matchups have played out VERY differently even though the same teams were using the same playbooks.

I play as the Cowboys but have added a few WRs to my team. Now I use the saints offensive playbook. I spread my guys out more. It fits my personal.

What he did should be fine. If you think it's such a big deal then play him and use the 49ers D as well.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

What's there to be said about someone who uses his own team's playbook and can win the game, other then "Well he can use his own team's playbook and win the game"? Use the playbook that fits the team you use, I really don't get what's the problem with that. It's not like those playbooks are especially "sim" or anything, they're just an arbitrary collection of plays that the designers thought "Oh well we think that's something this team would run", and often they are ridiculously wrong on that. I mean, the Patriots playbook this year has been a 3-4 even though the majority of plays the "real" Patriots have run on defensive used a 4 man front. It even went so far that they changed Mayo's position to OLB, correctly, because that's what he plays on the field in a 4-3 base defense, but then they keep the 3-4 playbook so Mayo's mostly lined up as a 3-4 OLB... yeah, right, I don't think I've EVER seen Mayo rushing from the edge in real life. My point being: Playbooks are educated guesses at best, simply wrong at worst. Maybe he just had a bad game and made some mistakes on your first matchup and fixed those on your following games? I can tell you that I have often faced the same team twice in one season (obviously...) and those two matchups have played out VERY differently even though the same teams were using the same playbooks.

I understand what you're saying because team playbooks don't seem to be tailored to each team but each one does offer certain limitations. Being able to switch playbooks in Madden is comparable to being able to change players on any team's roster or edit ratings. Sure you can do it but it takes away from the intended default risk/reward offered from each team having their own playbook.

There should be some option for a "playbook penalty" that makes players suffer an applicable ratings hit when running unfamiliar plays not in a teams default playbook, imo, but I digress.

EDIT* Just read the post above mine after posting this, which kind of illustrates my point.

Quote: Originally Posted by thbends

I play as the Cowboys but have added a few WRs to my team. Now I use the saints offensive playbook. I spread my guys out more. It fits my personal. What he did should be fine. If you think it's such a big deal then play him and use the 49ers D as well.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

This thread gets to the heart of my issue with the general rule of thumb applied to Madden, "do what works".

Sounds pretty much like the NFL to me. It's not called the "copycat league" for nothing. If one team does something that works, other teams or going to at the least look at it if not outright steal it. You saw Alex Smith running some "Tebow-like" plays in the PLAYOFFS.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Back in NFL2k5, I started placing my starting RB, Clinton Portis, on KR/PR because of his ball carrier skills and my buddies screamed foul. Was it cheating, no but it was unrealistic seeing as the game didn't differentiate between Return skills and general ball carrier skills, along with missing adequate risk/reward of injury, fatigue or disgruntled veteran potential.

There's no rule of it in the NFL and I doubt Portis would have complained. How do you "scout" kick return ability anyway. What makes one fast, agile, quick guy suck at returns and another good at it? (One has a 95 KR, the other 30 KR and both have the same physical skill set - fast, quick, agile, sounds like what you WANT from a kick returner).

If 2k5 didn't account for injuries or fatigue, that sounds like the real problem, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

So I personally think it's "not honorable" and if there is even a question about it, both teams should stick to their playbooks because that makes the victory all the more sweet, if you still beat 'em!

I'm the coach, and I have my own scheme, philosophy, and play call personality. Why should I use a plan foreign to that? How is that "realistic" for any coach to do that?

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by dirtguru

You can add a regular dime package too. Using Giants playbook, just has to be saved as a custom playbook under a different name.

Whenever I used defensive custom PBs, it always screwed up Special Teams plays, is that no longer the case?