Is it harder to make a football video game?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

I disagree with the unreasonable expectations. Heck if the Backbreaker people didn't just use sports to show off the engine and make a true football game, it made have been done. For the time FBPro was also close. I'm not versed in the 2K series but its supposedly was close. I see nothing unreasonable about expecting a large development house in the era of tech we are in now to have physics and AI working together and in the game. Having done AI modding, including creating AI systems/players from scratch, and seeing AI code, I'm sitting here with ideas on how things can be stored in arrays to represent what the player sees and can anticipate off it, behavior rules, agent states, I'm sure a pro AI programmer with full access can do big things. I have seen modders, guys doing this stuff in free time with 3DMax and what not make and fix developer issues in graphics and put new models in from scratch. How much more can an experience pro team be expected to add in with a year's time, let alone all the othe years? And we know physics can work in games. The play calling can be rules tables/xml that can work has a base and value/priority changes. I mean just even BASIC stuff. Populate each player's AI with basic goals based on the assigment on the play, and adjust as the action unfolds like an RTS. Yeah, its 22 data points, but that's doable. Not unreasonable. , The difficulty of the sport is the developers knowing the game enough to put it in and an engine that allows it. If Madden picked a limited engine and can't, or won't, extend it, that's not our fault for wanting an NFL football game to play...NFL football. That's the fault of EA as that's its decision, not ours. Of course players want more graphics and stuff. That's constant in any genre. It's caled technological progress. PS3/X360 gamers will not be happy with NES graphics in any genre. If EA can't deal with that and represent the on field action, that is not our expectations at fault. You can have good presentation without having to have insta-changes in direction or defenders that don't get off-balance, insta-max jumps, or coverage that is done with shortcuts, or defenders ignoring hit boxes, etc. FBPro98 at least abstracted all of this and made the ratings really matter for within the engine to where you didn't need to dissect a replay frame by frame or "do testing" to see it. And that's a 14 year old game. I know you want to largely blame the users/community as if EA is pressured into its choices, but that is not reality. Madden is missing things and, worse, other things wrong, and if other games didn't have some of these issues with weaker technology, why is it unachievable now?

Remember when kids didn't need a Public Service Announcement to play outside? Back then, we didn't need our video games to be 'realistic' because we actually PLAYED FOR REAL. Video games were merely an extension of our football gaming - not the brunt of it. The fantasy of Madden doesn't line up with reality. Never has.

Technology is less of an issue than the expectations we have. We seem to want video games to REPLACE reality - so it's hard to accept when a game isn't an exact duplicate of the real world.

Our expectations are impossible to deliver... How do you satisfy the entire football gaming community's diverse needs with one product?

Simple - YOU CAN'T.

Does that mean I'm saying EA shouldn't have an exclusive deal? NOPE. But Madden shouldn't be the only football gaming outlet. And there shouldn't be 50 different modes packed into one game.

Too much for too many. Just my opinion.

Later

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Remember when kids didn't need a Public Service Announcement to play outside? Back then, we didn't need our video games to be 'realistic' because we actually PLAYED FOR REAL. Video games were merely an extension of our football gaming - not the brunt of it. The fantasy of Madden doesn't line up with reality. Never has. Technology is less of an issue than the expectations we have. We seem to want video games to REPLACE reality - so it's hard to accept when a game isn't an exact duplicate of the real world. Our expectations are impossible to deliver... How do you satisfy the entire football gaming community's diverse needs with one product? Simple - YOU CAN'T. Does that mean I'm saying EA shouldn't have an exclusive deal? NOPE. But Madden shouldn't be the only football gaming outlet. And there shouldn't be 50 different modes packed into one game. Too much for too many. Just my opinion. Later

It seems like you might be correlating the difficulty of making a football game with impossibility of making a perfect football game. No reasonable person expects EA/Tiburon or any other company to make a perfect football game or one mode that pleases every gamer but EA seems to think to avoid the former, they have to accomplish the latter.

If someone reasonable plays NFL Blitz, they do not expect to find too much NFL authenticity, in any mode or setting. However, when playing Madden 12, which EA describes as, ".. the world’s most advanced football simulator.." it shouldn't be "hard" to program some mode or setting where applicable NFL authenticity is represented, at least on par with what's already been done in other football games, even past Maddens.

[erica 69]

Quote: Originally Posted by hoosierbengal

It seems like all the other major sports have pretty kick butt video games but it seems Madden year after year fails to quite bring it. Do you think we unfairly blame EA for not taking Madden to the next level? Is it maybe just that much harder to get closer to the perfect football game? Are our expectations unreasonable? I realize no sports game is perfect. MLB The Show is a pretty awesome baseball game but not without faults. It just seems year to year they make more strides. I can play a 162 game schedule with The Show but Madden struggles to hold my interest for much more than a season or two in single player franchise. For me personally this is odd as I am not as much into the MLB as I am the NFL. I am a huge NFL/football fan. Seems it should be the other way around for me. I want so much to feel about Madden like I do about The Show. My main question with this post.......Is it just that much harder to make a really good football game?

ea does not care its about money with them . nfl2k5 was the best

[Broncos86]

Quote: Originally Posted by erica 69

ea does not care its about money with them . nfl2k5 was the best

Rookie, that kind of talk can find you quickly out the door.

[huskerwr38]

Quote: Originally Posted by Segagendude

Just ask TheWatcher....granted, he had nowhere NEAR the team EA does, but he was off to a good start......then,well...........

Haha, yea, what ever happened to that?

Anyways, I know it's hard to make a football game. But EA has been doing it for YEARS. The same guys have been doing it for years as well. And we all know a good football game can be made just look to PS2 Madden and NFL 2k5, even APF 2k8 was a fundamentally sound football game. The reason why that game failed is because they didn't include a franchise mode and more customization options. I think that if you took Backbreaker's customization and APF 2k8's game play, you would have a game that most people would be happy with.

[huskerwr38]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Remember when kids didn't need a Public Service Announcement to play outside? Back then, we didn't need our video games to be 'realistic' because we actually PLAYED FOR REAL. Video games were merely an extension of our football gaming - not the brunt of it. The fantasy of Madden doesn't line up with reality. Never has. Technology is less of an issue than the expectations we have. We seem to want video games to REPLACE reality - so it's hard to accept when a game isn't an exact duplicate of the real world. Our expectations are impossible to deliver... How do you satisfy the entire football gaming community's diverse needs with one product? Simple - YOU CAN'T. Does that mean I'm saying EA shouldn't have an exclusive deal? NOPE. But Madden shouldn't be the only football gaming outlet. And there shouldn't be 50 different modes packed into one game. Too much for too many. Just my opinion. Later

I think you missed his point completely here. KBLover is simply saying that as the technology progresses, our expectations increase. It shouldn't be that much to ask for a football game to accurately represent the NFL. If amateur programmers, like him, can do some pretty cool stuff then pro programmers should be able to do pretty amazing things given the tools and time they have. I don't know what PSA's and kids not playing outside had to do with that post?

[xboxman41]

Well am a Major Football fan, But i do play other sport games to feed my love for sports, But i have to agree, i can play 4 to 8 seasons in MLB, NBA,...But Madden I struggles to hold my interest, I can not make it a season, and it drives me crazy Knowing how much I Love football games, I want to get into Madden SO BAD...But it's like EA is missing something that the other One's gives me....And I really want OMG I do....And am not flaming EA in anyway,, I know the Things Madden Needs for me, But may not be what others needs, Its like MLB & NBA has hit a Sweet spot for every1....There Franchise is just so much deeper than madden, The way they talk bout your team and other teams keeping you up to date...And I am surprised that EA has not got it right as long as they been making the Game...Maybe One Day'!!!!!!!! Hope so anyways

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by huskerwr38

I think you missed his point completely here. KBLover is simply saying that as the technology progresses, our expectations increase. It shouldn't be that much to ask for a football game to accurately represent the NFL. If amateur programmers, like him, can do some pretty cool stuff then pro programmers should be able to do pretty amazing things given the tools and time they have. I don't know what PSA's and kids not playing outside had to do with that post?

The PSA comment was aimed at people who actually know what it's like to WANT to play outside - AKA dudes in their upper 30's. Merely offered as a societal commentary about how times have changed.

There has never been an accurate reflection of the NFL... we shouldn't act like it's been done before because it hasn't. Whether you look at PS2 Madden or some other game as the example - same concerns.

If we look at FBPro, our personal opinion might say the game was great. But if you looked at the message boards, they looked exactly like these. Some helpful people pushing the game to improve, others helping players deal with the status quo, and rif-raff that seek to derail other's enjoyment because theirs wasn't up to par (and various mixes of the three).

Essentially, amateur programmers and their limited experience shouldn't not be indicative of professional programmers... Especially when it comes to satisfaction.

IMO, you get out what you put in. I enjoy this game because I know what it took for me to develop into a competitive player - and I enjoy the preparation as much as the battle. If someone neither likes the preparation nor the battle, we aren't going to enjoy the same game played in the same arena. Likewise, a game that caters to players like myself won't agree with them and a game that caters to players like them will not agree with me.

Show me a programmer with 5 million satisfied consumers and I'll show you a professional programmer. LOL

Later