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Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Old 02-15-2012, 12:22 AM   #41
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Originally Posted by Broncos86
The problem is that you have Suits and you have the development team. That is a MAJOR disconnect. The Suits answer to the stockholders. The Suits don't care one bit about making a realistic, excellent football game. They care about making a profit. And to them, Madden will make a profit every year. So why spend more money on something that is going to be your major cash cow anyways? If you go back to them and say "it's a better product," they're going to say "so what?" Take a company like 2K Sports, they're gunning for #1. They have every reason to push the envelop.

EA has had this terrible trend of simply buying companies. They're terrible about it. Instead of focusing on specific games and making them truly great, the EA Suits would rather just buy studios and hope they pump out winners. Maxis, Bioware, etc. It's ridiculous. There doesn't seem to be anyone at the top who is interested in making great games. It reminds me of what happened to Apple during the late 80s and 90s. Guys like Sculley and Spindler were more concerned with moving money around and profit/loss than making great products.

That's why it can be really tough as a development studio like Tiburon when you want to do all these amazing things, and you just don't have the resources available.
If you want my honest opinion, I completely agree with you and I've posted as much many times. I still feel ps2 madden is the best, most complete football game to date. A lot of people hate David Ortiz and Ian Cummings for their time as lead designer but I know Ian was deeply involved in creating my favorite ps2 features like wr shading. I'd guess he was involved in the mini camp games, lead blocking, vision cone and other solid features of the ps2 game. There is no doubt in my mind he is a talented programmer.

However I remember Ian's time on these systems more for half finished online franchise, game animations that included the "group hug" that was pro-tak, the hitch step that was put in to simulate fatigue, and injured players that still ran full speed. Not to mention a poorly implemented Gus Johnson, clumsy strat pad, really the list goes on and on for me.

I think the most logical explanation is that since EA secured exclusivity, Ian (and probably David Ortiz too) were not given the resources needed on the systems and the results are features that work and feel like they were done by amatuers. If I just come right out and say this tho, I'll be labeled an EA ***** or another 2k fanboy that wants his old game back so I tried to go with a more PC post.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:53 AM   #42
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

Yeah, it's a tough call. As an executive, if you have a chance to put your cash cow in cruise control, you do it. From a business standpoint, I wonder just how profitable the exclusive deal is. Eventually, EA will need to get some people up top who care about the industry and the products they make. Imagine being a Lead Designer for one of these games and trying to secure a budget, and you're constantly being capped. So you make the game with the limited resources you have. Then the gamers turn around and call you names, send you death threats on Twitter, and otherwise trash your year of work.

That'd give me enough reason to move on from the franchise, if you catch my drift.
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Old 02-15-2012, 11:42 AM   #43
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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I think the most logical explanation is that since EA secured exclusivity, Ian (and probably David Ortiz too) were not given the resources needed on the systems and the results are features that work and feel like they were done by amatuers. If I just come right out and say this tho, I'll be labeled an EA ***** or another 2k fanboy that wants his old game back so I tried to go with a more PC post.
ALl of this crap about limited budget is a bunch of bull. The problem is the code. The programmers that worked on this game did a crappy job. It's plain and simple. There are other development shops that produce games 10x the complexity of madden and they do it better with fewer developers. Besides, I work on enterprise level software, and larger teams do not equal better products. It's all about the individuals working on the product. They have to have the knowledge of the sport, passion for writing code, and passion for the sport. Everyone wants to find "the excuse" so that they can feel better about the crap that's been churned out. The reality is, they are just that - EXCUSES. It's a bad product, for many reasons. There are a few guys there now that hopefully can change things around. It's going to take even more time.
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:06 PM   #44
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Originally Posted by tazdevil20
ALl of this crap about limited budget is a bunch of bull. The problem is the code. The programmers that worked on this game did a crappy job. It's plain and simple. There are other development shops that produce games 10x the complexity of madden and they do it better with fewer developers. Besides, I work on enterprise level software, and larger teams do not equal better products. It's all about the individuals working on the product. They have to have the knowledge of the sport, passion for writing code, and passion for the sport. Everyone wants to find "the excuse" so that they can feel better about the crap that's been churned out. The reality is, they are just that - EXCUSES. It's a bad product, for many reasons. There are a few guys there now that hopefully can change things around. It's going to take even more time.
Somebody's bitter. Nobody is giving excuses for the initial bad codebase. But at this point, they don't have the resources to just magically turn around the franchise in one year or so. That was my point, and I think I spoke with knowledge of technology and the industry, so I'm pretty content in what I said.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:08 PM   #45
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

The excuses are amazing for why EA has not produced a better football game than the game we are playing today. NO ONE is asking for a perfect football game and is not even a issue to be debated. We ARE asking for an improvement on what has already been done.

Every game that's ever been made has people that like it and don't like it no matter how much praise or bad press it has gotten.

What we do know is in 2007 there was a football game that:

1. Had multiple hit tackles where you could actually effect the tackle.
2. Had Defensive line calls that included stunts.
3. You could decide what kind of coverage look you wanted for your secondary.
4. You could shade your DB inside or outside and had 4 levels of depth you could play on the WR's
5. Making defensive adjustments was WAY easier.
6. Custom Playbooks was well done with LOTS of formations.
7. Animations and player to field ratio was off the chains.
8. Commentary was the best in sports(The OTHER game they make holds that title now)

9. You could send more than one man in motion on offense.
10. You could come out lined up in one formation and shift to another.
11. Could create your audibles on the fly in the play call screen.
12. Recorded your opponents play style so you could practice against it.
13. Wr's ran their routes beautifully and were aware of the sidelines and where they were on the field.
14. You RB did not go into Mario Running mode when you ran into the back of a lineman, He had the ability to push off and go around.
15. Man Covearge did not have to CHEAT to be good. DB's backpeddeled and turned their hips and displayed appropriate animations.

16. DB/WR's did not warp to make plays on the ball, and no super leaping.
17. When you called audibles, you could see the plays you were picking from on the fly. (unlike in madden where you jut better know what that play does when you set it in audibles)
18. Foot planting by the players was WAY better done than in Madden.

That's just the stuff I can think up off the top of my head. If ALL that can be done in 2007 the is NO FREAKING REASON why EA continues to release these sad games they have produced since 2007.

Madden games boil down to who knows how to game the game the best and who knows how to exploit the exploits the best. Football knowledge comes 2nd. When I see DB's in cover 3 with their backs to the LOS chasing a WR down the field, TURN and come back to defend a pass to a WR BEHIND him underneath, football just went out the window. Just field a team with high rated players learn the exploits on the madden sites and youtube and you will be top rank in no time. Then come in these forums and talk about how great a madden player you are and how much you love it, then get invited to the annual Tiburon field trip so they can show you their appreciation for not pointing out the fact a 6 year old game does stuff their game can't do.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:21 PM   #46
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Originally Posted by TombSong

That's just the stuff I can think up off the top of my head. If ALL that can be done in 2007 the is NO FREAKING REASON why EA continues to release these sad games they have produced since 2007.
There is a reason, and I've spelled it out clear as day. It's up to you whether you want to remain upset and reject it, or understand reality. The reality is, the current gen codebase started out as garbage. Now, the current team is stuck with it. I've already said quite enough on this matter.

At this point, it comes down to whether people want to be upset or not. And I know some people want to be upset. Some mistakes are pretty far-reaching. Honestly, I think it's better to accept reality and then help the current team try to achieve what they can. Or, you can just keep on getting upset. But stress shaves years off our lives.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:40 PM   #47
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Originally Posted by Broncos86
There is a reason, and I've spelled it out clear as day. It's up to you whether you want to remain upset and reject it, or understand reality. The reality is, the current gen codebase started out as garbage. Now, the current team is stuck with it. I've already said quite enough on this matter.

At this point, it comes down to whether people want to be upset or not. And I know some people want to be upset. Some mistakes are pretty far-reaching. Honestly, I think it's better to accept reality and then help the current team try to achieve what they can. Or, you can just keep on getting upset. But stress shaves years off our lives.
Well, if the "current team" is "stuck with the current gen code base" that implies they can't do anything about it. So how are we suppose to "help the current team achieve what they can ?"
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:52 PM   #48
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Re: Is it harder to make a football video game?

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Originally Posted by TombSong
Well, if the "current team" is "stuck with the current gen code base" that implies they can't do anything about it. So how are we suppose to "help the current team achieve what they can ?"
That's not true, and the former statement makes no such implication to make the latter true. That's like suggesting you cannot buy a run-down house and fix it up. You sure can. But it takes time and money. The same time and money (AKA resources) that I spoke about earlier.

Look, I get that you want to be mad at EA, but let's not ignore common sense and rational thinking for the sake of it.
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