Is it harder to make a football video game?

[hoosierbengal]

It seems like all the other major sports have pretty kick butt video games but it seems Madden year after year fails to quite bring it. Do you think we unfairly blame EA for not taking Madden to the next level? Is it maybe just that much harder to get closer to the perfect football game? Are our expectations unreasonable? I realize no sports game is perfect. MLB The Show is a pretty awesome baseball game but not without faults. It just seems year to year they make more strides. I can play a 162 game schedule with The Show but Madden struggles to hold my interest for much more than a season or two in single player franchise. For me personally this is odd as I am not as much into the MLB as I am the NFL. I am a huge NFL/football fan. Seems it should be the other way around for me. I want so much to feel about Madden like I do about The Show. My main question with this post.......Is it just that much harder to make a really good football game?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by hoosierbengal

It seems like all the other major sports have pretty kick butt video games but it seems Madden year after year fails to quite bring it. Do you think we unfairly blame EA for not taking Madden to the next level? Is it maybe just that much harder to get closer to the perfect football game? Are our expectations unreasonable? I realize no sports game is perfect. MLB The Show is a pretty awesome baseball game but not without faults. It just seems year to year they make more strides. I can play a 162 game schedule with The Show but Madden struggles to hold my interest for much more than a season or two in single player franchise. For me personally this is odd as I am not as much into the MLB as I am the NFL. I am a huge NFL/football fan. Seems it should be the other way around for me. I want so much to feel about Madden like I do about The Show. Is it just that much harder to make a really good football game?

I'm the opposite of you... I can't get into baseball at all. Then again, I don't dig any sport that plays more than 16 games in a season. I don't understand how anyone could care about an 82 game season, much less 165. That said, Madden can't hold my attention for 1 full game unless I'm playing a human. Without the human element, Madden gets NO PLAY on my machine; with the human element Madden has infinite replay value.

That's why I always recommend playing humans... There's nothing like it. Without it, it's just a video game.

Later

[KBLover]

Football is a more complex sport than it looks on the surface, imo, combined with 22 players making individual decisions, seeing individual things, and placed a many ambiguous situations, it gets complicated.

Then throw in plays, when to use them, etc, it's a lot. Then the reason why plays succeed or fail isn't always for purely physical reasons, and then getting a game to generate these realistic mistakes/limitations so that it looks good and actually matters.

Then on top of all of that, there's user aspect of games like Madden and the "reward the user" and such that sometimes causes the actual football to go away for a moment to reward good button timing and what not - and then the whole "should the user be limited by the player he is controlling and by how much?" debate...

Granted a lot of these things apply to other sports, especially hockey, soccer, and basketball, but I think football has another couple layers that makes it a notch harder.

That said, it still should be done right. I don't think the difficulty is an excuse for lack of execution, but I can see how it is harder. I don't think it's unfair expectations especially after...how many versions of the game?

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Football is a more complex sport than it looks on the surface, imo, combined with 22 players making individual decisions, seeing individual things, and placed a many ambiguous situations, it gets complicated. Then throw in plays, when to use them, etc, it's a lot. Then the reason why plays succeed or fail isn't always for purely physical reasons, and then getting a game to generate these realistic mistakes/limitations so that it looks good and actually matters. Then on top of all of that, there's user aspect of games like Madden and the "reward the user" and such that sometimes causes the actual football to go away for a moment to reward good button timing and what not - and then the whole "should the user be limited by the player he is controlling and by how much?" debate... Granted a lot of these things apply to other sports, especially hockey, soccer, and basketball, but I think football has another couple layers that makes it a notch harder. That said, it still should be done right. I don't think the difficulty is an excuse for lack of execution, but I can see how it is harder. I don't think it's unfair expectations especially after...how many versions of the game?

I didn't touch on the difficulty of football in my original post but it is infinitely tougher to program than any other sport...

No other sport commonly has 8-10 simultaneous collisions. No other sports games get the scrutiny of MADDEN (not even other popular football video games). When you consider the multitude of techniques taught in high school and college that aren't included in Madden - it seems as if the game isn't fully representative of a football game. If a technique Player A learned in school when he was playing isn't in the game using basic adjustments- they might feel slighted.

Also, people that play Madden often expect to get the NFL simulation experience without putting forth a simulation effort. In the struggle to maintain realism, players don't account for what simulation really means... Drew Brees and Ray Lewis are a football players 365 days a year - they aren't playing baseball, hockey, or soccer. The only way to simulate the NFL experience is to be a virtual football player all-year long.

Furthermore, football on the professional level isn't FUN... It's WORK. When Drew Brees and Ray Lewis play football - they are earning their paycheck. Performance supersedes any amount of fun the players may have. Many of the players we watch aren't playing football because they want to, they are playing because they are good enough at it to get paid. Many would rather be doing something else.

So when I see people who would rather be doing something else playing Madden - but aren't taking it as seriously as a pro player would - it's no surprise that they don't enjoy their 'simulation' experience...

Just my $.02.

Later

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I'm the opposite of you... I can't get into baseball at all. Then again, I don't dig any sport that plays more than 16 games in a season. I don't understand how anyone could care about an 82 game season, much less 165. That said, Madden can't hold my attention for 1 full game unless I'm playing a human. Without the human element, Madden gets NO PLAY on my machine; with the human element Madden has infinite replay value. That's why I always recommend playing humans... There's nothing like it. Without it, it's just a video game. Later

I've asked you before.

This thread has nothing to do playing a human or the CPU. Please stop bringing this up unnecessarily.

We all know how you feel. When it has nothing to do with the thread, there is no need to bring it up constantly.

[carnalnirvana]

making any game is hard and complicated however, it can be done if you have a vision...

i believe the people making this game are more interested in tech and showcasing what they can accomplish with or developing new tech advances than delivering authentic football.

i wont harp on the old issues but imagine a basketball game where lebron or kobe took 2 shots a game...thats what happens when i play a game and fitzgerald gets 2 targets all game...

for me nfl football is great because of player tendencies and team tendencies and how stars earn those checks...

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

I've asked you before. This thread has nothing to do playing a human or the CPU. Please stop bringing this up unnecessarily. We all know how you feel. When it has nothing to do with the thread, there is no need to bring it up constantly.

Sorry to keep bringing it up... But it's sports. Sports are mano y mano. One man against another. There's no way to simulate one man against another without pitting one man against another. The CPU is not now, nor will it every be a substitute for a living breathing human being...

That aside, regarding the OP's post... He neither mentions playing the CPU nor humans. Therefore, my post was appropriate. I understand you personally aren't concerned with whether I like playing humans or not - same can be said of my opinion of how you might play. How we like to play personally is irrelevant - what is relevant is the difficulty in incorporating every possible style and technique taught all over the football world into one game that is supposed to simulate a level of play that only 1800 people a year get to experience for real...

So YES... it is tons harder to make a football video game than any other sport as evidenced by the number of football games on the market and the number of companies that abandoned making one prior to the exclusive license being a factor...

Before 2002, several companies made football games. After that, you could count them on one hand. The profit didn't justify the effort considering the PR battle after a game released... It's also the reason there has never been a consensus football game.

Later

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Sorry to keep bringing it up... But it's sports. Sports are mano y mano. One man against another. There's no way to simulate one man against another without pitting one man against another. The CPU is not now, nor will it every be a substitute for a living breathing human being...

It's fine, you bring great contributions to threads that warrant it.

I'm just asking you to keep it out of threads it is irrelevant in as it can bring them off topic.

I appreciate your approach here, you are respectful in every way. I disagree with you in every way but that is okay. I love seeing your passion for the game. I'm just asking that you don't bring it into threads that have nothing to do with the topic.

I know you have your own site and hope you can respect what we ask here.