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Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Old 02-18-2012, 08:09 PM   #41
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
According to Bill Walsh he ran a 4.59.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members...lsh/walsh3.htm

That is functional speed for the NFL of the 80s and 90s IMO. Like I said, the 40 shows the potential for maximum straight line speed. I think that sometimes people underestimate or even confuse acceleration, agility, and technique for speed. Rice was tough to catch because he would always gain a wide cushion while running great routes. He would never be caught in a 40 yard sprint by a guy running a 4.30 40 time with a 4 yard cushion.
I agree for the most part, it's just that game itself has never really had the sophistication to capture these distinctions well. I think the current gen version of the game has improved significantly in this area with the addition of many more attributes like route running, man coverage, ball carrier vision, elusiveness etc, but in the old ps2 world we were limited to just speed, acc, agi, btk, tkl, awr, etc.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:11 PM   #42
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by mpeterso
While I generally agree with you, it's funny you mention Ward and Hall in a comparison to each other. There was a game in 2007 where Ward clearly pulled away from Hall in a foot race. Ward caught a pass over the middle of the field with Hall basically right beside him, and pulled away from Hall while losing one shoe, and was able to gain another 40 yards for a TD. Ward didn't make any moves and he didn't truck or stiff arm Hall. He was just quicker on that play than Hall. The reason I remember that play to this day is because not only did it make me re-evaluate how I perceived Ward's speed, it was also a hot topic for a day or two on Maddenmania.

Here's the clip:

One shoed Hines Ward outruns Deangelo Hall.

Now that's not to say Ward would ever beat Hall in an actual race or that I'd ever set Ward's speed higher than Hall's, it's just to say that relying on 40 times only isn't as accurate as we might like. Don't get me wrong, I definitely consider 40 times when editing attributes like speed and acceleration, all I'm saying is I also factor actual play on the field as well.
I honestly don't recall ever seeing that video before and I used those two as a random example. lol. Go figure.

That said, this video is the epitome of the problem with basing ratings on an "eye test". There was nothing in that video that suggested Hines Ward is any faster than Deangelo Hall on a football field in pads than on a track, imo.

Ward makes many change of directions while Hall is in pursuit and Hall is able to still catch up with Ward twice but unable to make a play. The first time is when the catch is made, Hall reaches out for Ward but stumbles when Ward changes direction and then the second time, as Ward changes directions yet again, Hall is rubbed off by a teammate.

There are many attributes displayed in this video that could be considered with respect to Ward's Madden ratings, agility, acceleration, route running, etc and Hall's as well, pursuit, tackle, etc but speed, is not one of them, imo.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:23 PM   #43
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
What I see in that clip is Hall tripping while taking a poor angle, Ward using his open field vision and agility to evade Hall, and then Ward being easily run back down as Hall practically jogs to him while evading his own man again. If Ward doesn't make that initial cut back inside after catching the ball, which Hall misjudges and overruns, he is easily caught. In fact, the other CB runs Ward down as well and misjudges him again as he weaves toward the sideline. Toward the end of the play, Hall is maybe at 60% of full speed, probably misjudging the Ward...or perhaps he was tired after running 20 yards, missing a tackle, cutting back, running Ward down again, and then failing to tackle. Let me know if I am missing something here, but I don't think that is an example of SPD. That is an example of poor tackling, poor angles, and great open field vision/awareness/agility/conditioning by Hines Ward.
Sure it's all of that, but how would you program that? I mean, if Hall's speed is set at 96 or 97, how are you going to program in logic where he jogs at 60% of that speed rating for a portion of that play? Not that I expect you to solve Maddens game play issues, but if Ward's speed is set at 80 there is almost no way the game can replicate that play today.

All I'm saying is setting a guys speed rating (as well as acceleration) based only on his pro day 40 time isn't necessarily going to lead to realistic or perfect game play. I'm not saying that's what you're saying or attempting to do. Far from it, I'm just saying there is more subjectiveness to a player's than just a 40 time - which I think you acknowledged when you typed that a 4.59 40 gives a guy a range in the 80's to 90's.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:30 PM   #44
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

There are many attributes displayed in this video that could be considered with respect to Ward's Madden ratings, agility, acceleration, route running, etc and Hall's as well, pursuit, tackle, etc but speed, is not one of them, imo.
I agree completely, with the exception that a player with 80 or less speed could never make that run imo - especially when running against 90-95+ speed players. To put it another way, it's very hard to gain 70 yards on a play in the NFL without even a modicum of speed - especially when you have one of the league's fastest players within 2 yards of you when you make the catch with more than 40 yards to go to the end zone.
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Old 02-18-2012, 08:37 PM   #45
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
According to Bill Walsh he ran a 4.59.

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/members...lsh/walsh3.htm

For what it's worth, Jerry Rice had himself at 4.5.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:58 PM   #46
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by mpeterso
Sure it's all of that, but how would you program that? I mean, if Hall's speed is set at 96 or 97, how are you going to program in logic where he jogs at 60% of that speed rating for a portion of that play? Not that I expect you to solve Maddens game play issues, but if Ward's speed is set at 80 there is almost no way the game can replicate that play today.

All I'm saying is setting a guys speed rating (as well as acceleration) based only on his pro day 40 time isn't necessarily going to lead to realistic or perfect game play. I'm not saying that's what you're saying or attempting to do. Far from it, I'm just saying there is more subjectiveness to a player's than just a 40 time - which I think you acknowledged when you typed that a 4.59 40 gives a guy a range in the 80's to 90's.

The 80s and 90s was a reference to the era. Players are faster today, on average. You can look at all the combine data going back to 1986 to verify it. There is a great video produced by the guys at the Top Gun QB Academy showing what made Rice great...he ALWAYS ran his routes at top speed. It's near impossible to do; keeping your speed up through your breaks, even for the most polished of route runners.

As for fixing things in Madden, I'm pretty sure that the stamina rating could take more affect on the results of such a play. How about a "Recovery" rating? The ability to "Recover" as a defender to make a play after getting beaten. The scouts notice it all the time on the tape...why can't we have that in Madden? "Effort" even? The "motor" of a player can be subjectively measured, so why not include it? How many players does a player take off or give less effort due to condition, game flow, play, etc. Just some things to ponder.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:00 AM   #47
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpeterso
For what it's worth, Jerry Rice had himself at 4.5.
Either way you slice it, I think his speed was underrated. If he says it was more like a 4.50, that is (believe it or not) above average for an NFL receiver and is more than competent for speed.
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Old 02-19-2012, 12:02 AM   #48
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Re: Is EA/Tiburon Committed To Making Madden 13's Player Ratings "True To The NFL"?

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Originally Posted by mpeterso
I agree completely, with the exception that a player with 80 or less speed could never make that run imo - especially when running against 90-95+ speed players. To put it another way, it's very hard to gain 70 yards on a play in the NFL without even a modicum of speed - especially when you have one of the league's fastest players within 2 yards of you when you make the catch with more than 40 yards to go to the end zone.
Well remember now, the difference between a 4.30 and a 4.59 over the course of 40 yards is a very, very small margin. Most of these players are within mere inches, or at most, feet of each other after sprinting 40 yards. So the gap is less significant. But once again, Madden fails to accurately represent this and fails to utilize real-world physics.
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