What does simulation mean to you?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Per Russell's comment on noticing the 2nd CB. I do not like the way this is currently. In online games you cannot know who the 2nd CB is unless you are really paying attention AFTER the play. Sometimes guys will move their CB's around and I have no clue on offense who is where. The sad thing about it is that in the older Madden and NCAA games you had an on field display of who was lined up where.

As much as I hate on screen displays, I liked that one since it was user controlled and I can't think of a better way of identifying defenders.

My friends & I tend not to move DBs or WRs, so I'm able to use this tactic to some degree. I just don't like the shading aspect of it.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Probably an area where you and I differ (although I know this question was aimed at KB). I get realistic stats & scores in 12 min quarters, but I also feel like the way those results are achieved is realistic too. I don't have any exploits that I use against the AI. I'm usually consistent w/ running the ball and I'll usually pop a couple for 20+ yards. I'm not getting 80 yards every time I run tosses or anything like that.

I have a friend that won't hesitate to run with a QB. Other than that, I don't come across too many exploits, nor do I use them intentionally. There are just some play types that don't unfold like they do IRL.

Those tosses & off tackle runs, for example. Big run or not, they just don't happen like they do IRL. In Madden, the big runs tend to happen because the OLB couldn't disengage, so the RB takes the corner too easily, and if the CB doesn't make the one on one tackle, big run.

IRL, the entire engaged front flows towards the play, closing down the available space on the outside. The RB is at least forced to read the TE/OLB block, often cutting up inside that block, sometimes cutting inside a OT/DT block, on & on to the "cut back" run. Because of the lack of contain AI & lack of engaged player lateral movement, these plays are not possible.

It just bothers me most when they result in big runs in Madden because it's almost always due to the OLB getting stuck to the TE in that one spot, resulting in a one on one situation with a DB.

Check this Chris Johson vid. Maybe the fastest back in the league. He takes the corner once in this vid at 1:02 and it looks like it was due to motion, creating an overload that the defense didn't respond to. But at :46, 1:36, 1:44, 2:37 and maybe some other spots, you see him having to deal with traffic on outside runs.

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Oh, I'm a basic player. I may move my one player around, or do the show blitz here and there, but nothing crazy to manipulate the game. Yes, the CPU controlled players put the pressure on. I got there sometimes w/ Ware or someone on the D-line. Yes, I used Dallas and the 3-4. Yes, some blitzes are more effective than others -- just as some blitzes leave you more exposed than others. They go hand & hand...

Maybe I need to experiment more. I can't seem to get pressure with user or CPU controlled players with any consistency. I'm also reluctant to use certain blitzes with certain teams. I tend not to bring more than 5 unless I'm using Philly or another team that gambles like that. And I also have trouble using certain blitzes because of the coverage it's combo-ed with.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I impose some of those rules on myself. The problem is, sometimes that doesn't allow me to use players like their real life counterparts. I try not to run too often with my QB, but a player like Cam will sprint to the sidelines for a big gain. I'm not concious of when I zig zag, but it does look ugly and result in some unrealistic plays. But someone posted a vid a few days ago of the real life Hines Ward using similar tactics to get away from DeAngelo Hall, a much faster player. He might not have zagged, but he zigged a few times. How sim is an onside kick to start the 2nd half of the Super Bowl until the Saints did it? How sim is it to put a WR at DB until the Pats started doing it? I can see how these rules could make for a more sim experience, but I also think it can take away from it at times. But some of these, I'm curious how you limit. Do you not allow players in the open field to change direction more than a certain number of times? No user control on D?

The zig zagging isn't a problem on defense as much as offense. Our rules are that you can only use a face button move or a right stick move in the open field. You may use the left stick to straighten out to avoid going out of bounds, but you can't use it to change direction. It's completely broken if you do and it allows for LOADS of big plays. We also allow running with the QB, because there are ways to stop it, but simply snapping the ball and sprinting to the sideline can get annoying because the spies can get hung up if you manipulate the QB the right way. The left stick usage is the toughest rule. We also have rules to allow the defense to get set before snapping the ball. These rules are enforced through video evidence and things like that. It's been very successful and once guys get used to it, they find it MUCH more enjoyable.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Do the scores & stats have priority over how you acheive them? Are you confident that realistic movement, interaction & ratings would result in realistic scores & stats. I feel some of the ratings have to be miniupulated for the sake of realistic stats, to account for some missing elements. For example, CBs have to tackle better because of the lack of contain logic & engaged player lateral movement. DEs have to shed blocks better for the same reasons. Has this type of minipulation bothered you?

As the way things stand now, to a degree, yes. If the game just has to manipulate things so my top tier defense plays as such (the ratings trigger the game to "give them more plays to make", it's "bearable", moreso than if without that manipulation, it wouldn't matter at all. I won't be "happy" about it, but at least my defense isn't giving up 40 points a game when they are rated like the 2000 Ravens, which would immediately make me throw the game out and join the ratings really do mean totally zero camp. Right now, at least they matter for when/if the manipulations occur.

Realistic ratings, movement, and interaction is a big, big part of it, but I think the other part of production is decision-making and for the CPU and the CPU controlled players on the human team, that includes mental type ratings being a part of the picture constantly and in real ways. It's one thing to make the player do football things in the right and realistic way, it's another for the player to know what football thing to do and with the right timing and reaction time and with the opportunity for the player to do the wrong thing, as real players sometimes do. I think with all the focus on the player movement and animation interactions, the decision-making gets left behind a little.

The lack of true anticipation behavior (where the AI says "okay, he ran this 4 times, next time I see that move, I'm jumping it) leads to a lot of things on both sides. It's harder to set up double-moves and confuse the read the defender thinks he has, but it also stops the defender from reading what he's seeing on a player/play and being proactive on the play instead of always reactive. It also leads to "Madden shortcuts" like the CB running the route ahead of the WR - because the game has no other way to have a CB not make a move, read the WR, then break on what he's anticipating by going to the ball delivery point to pick it off.

I think the lack of proper decision-making is what creates the "psychic" type play and leads to stuff like LBzrule posted with the unstoppable stunt move. OL that just reacted to what they saw, identified rushers, and know how to pass off/understood who their line-mates are assigned to pick up, it would have the OL working more as a unit with more teamwork and "communication". Also, identifying the movement of the DL is missing (they could see read the stunt movement and adjust on the fly with enough awareness/communication), just like it's missing on the other side of the coin with the DL keying on the OL movements.

The lack of mental play leads to LBs hitting the wrong gaps and windows, not stay disciplined in coverage, and taking weird angles to the ball carrier (my MLB sometimes tries to go all the way around the T to get to the ball carrier running up the middle. Why?) Stuff like that doesn't make me think he needs better movement, he needs better decision-making and understanding that he's just vacating where the ball carrier is coming!

The manipulation you mention bothers me, and moreso the fact it's necessary. The sole reason I have reaction jacked up is to create more containment type behavior so that the front seven does their job more and leaves the DBs out of it more often. It should be like that out of the box. The "break DT/LB tackles so the back can get free, but then get tackled by the CB" stuff gets to me too. The manipulated bad throws (not the user made bad throws, but ones where the ball just "slows down" or goes to a defender instead of just sailing by incomplete.

All of these kinds of manipulations do rub me the wrong way. Ideally, they wouldn't exist at all. Realistically, some form will likely be there. Just a matter of how much and how obvious it is. It can be, and needs to be, more subtle than it is now and getting both the physical and mental play closer proper football will let that happen.

[kjcheezhead]

Player movement and reaction is probably the most important part for me, but second would be balance above anything else for me.

Second for me would be balanced gameplay. When my opponent does x, I need to be able to counter with y. Preferrably y should involve some football answer as in a coverage scheme or shifting the line etc. and not being forced to manually cover the slot wr because the ai isn't up to the job regardless of coverage called for example.


Lbzrule's vid points out both of these flaws in Madden. Pick the right defense and put the defenders in the right position and it's all over for the offense. It doesn't matter if it's a dime defense against a base offense, the offense is at too much of a disadvantage to do anything but respond with unsimulation style tactics to counter.

I would be put up with a game that finished with 700 yrds passing for Mark Sanchez and a final score of 110-102 and still feel it simulated a good game as long as I didn't have to deal with stuff like that vid shows. Stats and scores are a result of how players choose to play the game and don't indicate sim or non sim to me at all.

[Danimal]

Well I always get blasted for this but it's how I feel. My top 5 things keeping this game from being a true simulation.

1. You can't have simulation when you let people control the players. IMO it's not possible with current technology to adapt to the gamey things people can do. You can get close but you'll never have true simulation when someone is working the players movement.

If i had my way I would run my OF in coach only mode but I can't do that because it's not an option. Best league I have ever played in was with NFL Pro League football I think it was called. We just called plays over modems!

2. Realistic play calling. The game could immediately bump up it's sim cred by re-writing the play call mechanics. However it won't or can't. Being unable to call my line stunts and coverages independently is just inexcusable as far as I am concerned.

3. Secondary Interaction. I'm extremely hard on this because I used to coach this position. Simply put it is horrendous and gets worse every year. How many hands do you need to count the number of times you've seen a receiver haul in a deep bomb by out jumping 3 defenders who didn't make a play on the ball. You can't shade or play different techniques and Madden's answer to a player who is bad in bump and run is to be beat 7 out of 10 plays.

4. Line Play - Pretty much take what i said above. Throw in realistic line play terminology and repeat. At least this are is seeing some improvement.

5. Penalties - The fact I need to even write this as a problem is absurd. No DPI, No Defensive Holding, No . I'm convinced penalties are broken in the code. There is no way you can go a decade with improper and missing penalties and hear countless complaints and ignore them.

[LBzrule]

^^

I also think the zone blocking and mobility of blocks needs a lot of work. You cannot cut back like Arian Foster does because the lanes are just not there due to the simplistic win or lose block shed system.

Let's look at this with a guy from college who I think is great at cutback running Isaiah Pead.



Notice at 00:28 he has a cut back lane and guys on the back side are not just beating blocks and running free.

Also notice the cut at 1:10. The front side is sealed off so he has to cut back. That free back side defender does not have the speed to get to him before he cuts back and accelerates through the lane. In Madden they have every back side defender playing like Lawrence Taylor.

1:22 same thing. Front side is cut off so watch him cut back to the middle. Also again at 3:05.

I'm in no way saying that those lanes should be there against every team. But the combination of play calling and personnel should play into whether that is there or not.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Danimal

Well I always get blasted for this but it's how I feel. My top 5 things keeping this game from being a true simulation. 1. You can't have simulation when you let people control the players. IMO it's not possible with current technology to adapt to the gamey things people can do. You can get close but you'll never have true simulation when someone is working the players movement. If i had my way I would run my OF in coach only mode but I can't do that because it's not an option. Best league I have ever played in was with NFL Pro League football I think it was called. We just called plays over modems! 2. Realistic play calling. The game could immediately bump up it's sim cred by re-writing the play call mechanics. However it won't or can't. Being unable to call my line stunts and coverages independently is just inexcusable as far as I am concerned. 3. Secondary Interaction. I'm extremely hard on this because I used to coach this position. Simply put it is horrendous and gets worse every year. How many hands do you need to count the number of times you've seen a receiver haul in a deep bomb by out jumping 3 defenders who didn't make a play on the ball. You can't shade or play different techniques and Madden's answer to a player who is bad in bump and run is to be beat 7 out of 10 plays. 4. Line Play - Pretty much take what i said above. Throw in realistic line play terminology and repeat. At least this are is seeing some improvement. 5. Penalties - The fact I need to even write this as a problem is absurd. No DPI, No Defensive Holding, No . I'm convinced penalties are broken in the code. There is no way you can go a decade with improper and missing penalties and hear countless complaints and ignore them.

I am right there with you on all the other stuff but this 1. lol

There will never be an exact replica of any sport in a video game due to programming limitations but the amount of User control has nothing to do with it, imo. Like I stated earlier, I believe the more User control, the better the immersion the simulation offers and it just needs applicable real life parameters represented to effect User control in a realistic manner. I think the misunderstanding comes from people equating User control with User success but just because people are able to attempt whatever, shouldn't mean that whatever they attempt yields a guaranteed result, whether negative, positive or neutral.

Many people seem to feel that the "freestyle" crowd and "sim" crowd are at odds with each other but I totally disagree. All sports, like life, are completely freestyle and each person can attempt to do whatever they want. However, those actions in real life have inherent risk/reward depending on the situation and in Madden, the real life NFL risk/reward for many freestyle actions is lacking or missing, resulting in them being poorly simulated in Madden. So it's fine to have "freestyle" User control as long as there is "sim" risk/reward attached.

I don't want to come across like some jerk that think he has all the answers for making an ideal NFL simulation game but it amazes me at the number of realistic ideas I read from gamers on various forums that have come nowhere near being implemented in Madden, to date.

I remember arcade games like Double Dragon and Wrestlemania? back in the day that had many different players involved in one-on-one and two-on-one interactions, all at the same time on the same screen, so I am little confused as to why this can't be accomplished in 2012 with Madden. I picture Madden being like the WWF Battle Royale with each player engaging in various interactions at the same time and that seems to be handled fairly well in wrestling games but not Madden.