User Control and Online Play

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by bigfnjoe96

The biggest issue I have is people who manually blitz. To me its a trash tatic. It's an exploit Plain & Simple. It's even more frustrating when people use schemes that allow the exploit to happen because they know the AI can't adjust to their advantage.

This is another reason I fault the user first...

It's not an exploit to manually rush the passer, nor it is the AI's job to adjust to an opponent's strategy. It's ALWAYS YOUR JOB to adjust to your opponent's strategy and the 'advantage' you concede exists in your mind before it ever exists on the field.

I think we can all agree that a sane person would never expected a person that is 2100 miles away (in my case anyway - Orlando may be closer to you) to anticipate every potential way to pressure my backfield 9 months in advance of the game I'm playing. It's much more realistic to expect the dev team to provide tools to adjust our own play during the game - and they have.

Case in point... Manual rushers do not have an advantage against a player like myself because I never concede the advantage. Not only am I aware of how my line blocks, what my reads are, but I'm also aware of where my formations are weak. Because of this understanding, I augment my protections to buy the time I need to get to the LOS in the run game and to get the ball away in the passing game.

Whether it's a change as simple as changing the formation, flipping the TE, hot routing a player to block, rolling away from pressure, calling a play that penalizes aggressive rushers, etc... IT'S IN THE GAME. Therefore, It's not the AI's fault that people are neglecting to protect themselves.

Needless to say, because I focused on PROTECTION beginning in Madden '03 - every skill I've learned since has made me tougher to blitz year after year.

There's a reason I don't use shotgun... It's because I can move the ball from under center because I'm not expecting the AI to do what I should do.

ALWAYS FAULT THE USER!

Later

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This is another reason I fault the user first... It's not an exploit to manually rush the passer, nor it is the AI's job to adjust to an opponent's strategy. It's ALWAYS YOUR JOB to adjust to your opponent's strategy and the 'advantage' you concede exists in your mind before it ever exists on the field. I think we can all agree that a sane person would never expected a person that is 2100 miles away (in my case anyway - Orlando may be closer to you) to anticipate every potential way to pressure my backfield 9 months in advance of the game I'm playing. It's much more realistic to expect the dev team to provide tools to adjust our own play during the game - and they have. Case in point... Manual rushers do not have an advantage against a player like myself because I never concede the advantage. Not only am I aware of how my line blocks, what my reads are, but I'm also aware of where my formations are weak. Because of this understanding, I augment my protections to buy the time I need to get to the LOS in the run game and to get the ball away in the passing game. Whether it's a change as simple as changing the formation, flipping the TE, hot routing a player to block, rolling away from pressure, calling a play that penalizes aggressive rushers, etc... IT'S IN THE GAME. Therefore, It's not the AI's fault that people are neglecting to protect themselves. Needless to say, because I focused on PROTECTION beginning in Madden '03 - every skill I've learned since has made me tougher to blitz year after year. There's a reason I don't use shotgun... It's because I can move the ball from under center because I'm not expecting the AI to do what I should do. ALWAYS FAULT THE USER! Later

I side with users control in most cases but I don't agree with this at all. It's a fact that this game has extremely exploitable pass blocking logic. Lineman do not double team and get assigned specific defenders.

That means a two man pass rush can be as effective as a 4 man rush if used against the right offensive sets. I also believe it absolutely is the AIs job to adjust to the same rush tactics done over and over. This game is touted to have "adaptive ai" in it's programming for God's sake.

When you add to that a user who is particularly skilled at beating their lineman the game goes from being fun to wanting to snap the disc in half in a nano-blitz second.

[Big FN Deal]

@TNT, it seems that me and you don't so much disagree but we just often have entirely different perspectives.

I think you play Madden for the thrill of competition and the satisfaction that you were able to compete utilizing football disciplines and that's cool, imo. However, other people want a more football detailed process in Madden gameplay, that requires EA/Tiburon programming applicable real life parameters, for them to get a similar thrill and satisfaction, on par or better than what they find in other sports simulation games, even past NFL simulation games.

By your own admission, you don't play other sports simulation games and haven't played another NFL simulation game in a long time, so it would make sense that you can't relate to that perspective. However, that shouldn't prevent a reasonable person from respecting it or cause them to label those that hold that perspective as somehow less passionate about the football in Madden.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

I side with users control in most cases but I don't agree with this at all. It's a fact that this game has extremely exploitable pass blocking logic. Lineman do not double team and get assigned specific defenders. That means a two man pass rush can be as effective as a 4 man rush if used against the right offensive sets. I also believe it absolutely is the AIs job to adjust to the same rush tactics done over and over. This game is touted to have "adaptive ai" in it's programming for God's sake. When you add to that a user who is particularly skilled at beating their lineman the game goes from being fun to wanting to snap the disc in half in a nano-blitz second.

Here's another reason I ALWAYS FAULT THE USER.

Each Madden disc (for the respective systems) is identical. My pass blocking logic is the same as yours, his, and theirs. If the pass blocking logic were nearly as faulty as it is touted to be, there would be nothing I could do to avoid the same types of issues we see related in forum post after post.

But that's not the case... The wildcard is always the connection between the couch and the controller - the USER. The USER that properly adjusts his formations, protections, QB drops, WR routes, run blocking, etc does not have the same issues as the player that does not.

Question is: How many players make the proper adjustments?

Adaptive AI is a marketing term. There is no such thing as Adaptive AI in real life. I'm going to guess that even in the NFL the same defensive pressure packages will work indefinitely unless someone makes an adjustment to pick them up. Whether it's the center at the line of scrimmage pointing out a rusher, the QB calling out the rush, an offensive line coach drawing up a new protection on the sidelines, or adjusting during the week of practice after watching game film - someone must COMMUNICATE protection changes to the players before anyone is expected to execute properly.

In Madden, that's the USER's job. The communication system begins in the playcall screen and does not end until the whistle blows at the end of a play. Neglecting just one element of these steps means risking disaster. Oddly, neglecting the communication system is the main reason people want "Adaptive AI" to make the decisions regarding execution that they should be making.

Does that mean that the game can't improve on the options available? NO. Not at all. There are plenty of things that can be improved. But what good is improving the options when the USER isn't fully making use of the options that are already available?

When the USER actually makes use of the tools available intelligently, there's no need for "Adaptive AI." But when USERS don't use the tools (or don't use them intelligently) it can seem as if there are huge flaws in the game itself that require "Adaptive AI."

Rest assured, these opinions have been the driving force behind why I've been able to run my offense from under center since online play began.

Remember... IDENTICAL DISCS = IDENTICAL LOGIC. If yours is broken beyond repair, so is mine. And mine has worked fine for almost a decade.

Later

[kjcheezhead]

@ TNT

Quote:

Question is: How many players make the proper adjustments?

What are the "proper" adjustments exactly? This game has no double team blocking and users are not given the ability to assign specific blocking assignments so this is impossible from the start.

I can put the maximum guys possible in to block, I can slide protect,I can roll my qb out of the pocket, but I cannot do anything about the fact that defenders are going to be blocked 1 on 1. The counter has to be a Madden ball style response because a real NFL response is not possible regardless of what you believe.

As for adaptive AI, I agree with you that it is nothing but a marketing term in Madden but it does exist is other games. If you played other football games I think you would understand just how difficult it can be to set up Madden style nanos and rush tactics to get pressure with 2-3 pass rushers.

[Smoke6]

Here's another reason

Quote:

I ALWAYS FAULT THE USER.

Do you ever actually sit down and blame the source of all this besides the "user"?

I mean, you should be undefeated up to this point in playing online in madden. You talk as if you have everything down pact in regards to the issues we face that we dont see as a "user issue".

I cant control my O-linemen any more than what EA allows me too compared to the unlimited amount of control a user has on the other side of the ball. Someone brought up the manual blitz and it is an "exploit"! I have seen people do this the "entire" game on defense, no matter what I did to prevent or slow it down nothing worked.

So I guess this is my flaw in which I should dumb down my gameplay and start playing lobby ball to counter such a tactic which would just go against what this thread is really about right?

TNT, you amaze me bro!

Madden is just flawed in our eyes and its up to us to correct our shortcomings (even though we are doing everything we know) because madden has everything we been asking and looking for but we're not seeing it or applying it at all?

OooooooKkkkk!

[bigfnjoe96]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

This is another reason I fault the user first... It's not an exploit to manually rush the passer, nor it is the AI's job to adjust to an opponent's strategy. It's ALWAYS YOUR JOB to adjust to your opponent's strategy and the 'advantage' you concede exists in your mind before it ever exists on the field. I think we can all agree that a sane person would never expected a person that is 2100 miles away (in my case anyway - Orlando may be closer to you) to anticipate every potential way to pressure my backfield 9 months in advance of the game I'm playing. It's much more realistic to expect the dev team to provide tools to adjust our own play during the game - and they have. Case in point... Manual rushers do not have an advantage against a player like myself because I never concede the advantage. Not only am I aware of how my line blocks, what my reads are, but I'm also aware of where my formations are weak. Because of this understanding, I augment my protections to buy the time I need to get to the LOS in the run game and to get the ball away in the passing game. Whether it's a change as simple as changing the formation, flipping the TE, hot routing a player to block, rolling away from pressure, calling a play that penalizes aggressive rushers, etc... IT'S IN THE GAME. Therefore, It's not the AI's fault that people are neglecting to protect themselves. Needless to say, because I focused on PROTECTION beginning in Madden '03 - every skill I've learned since has made me tougher to blitz year after year. There's a reason I don't use shotgun... It's because I can move the ball from under center because I'm not expecting the AI to do what I should do. ALWAYS FAULT THE USER! Later

I respect your post, but to say "It's the User's Fault" for not adjusting just isn't fair. There's only but so much a user can do. The rest is up to the AI of the Game. When the AI of the Game is Flawed in certain area's (Pass Blocking Logic being 1 of them) I don't care how much you adjust the Flaw will show it's ugly head & there's really nothing you can do.

I've played Football Online for a long time. It's just the nature of how it goes

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

@TNT, it seems that me and you don't so much disagree but we just often have entirely different perspectives. I think you play Madden for the thrill of competition and the satisfaction that you were able to compete utilizing football disciplines and that's cool, imo. However, other people want a more football detailed process in Madden gameplay, that requires EA/Tiburon programming applicable real life parameters, for them to get a similar thrill and satisfaction, on par or better than what they find in other sports simulation games, even past NFL simulation games. By your own admission, you don't play other sports simulation games and haven't played another NFL simulation game in a long time, so it would make sense that you can't relate to that perspective. However, that shouldn't prevent a reasonable person from respecting it or cause them to label those that hold that perspective as somehow less passionate about the football in Madden.

You're absolutely right. I COMPETE. But not just at Madden, I compete at EVERYTHING. I'm a competitive person by nature. The thrill of competition drives my work ethic and my play ethic.

For the sake of discussion, practically everyone I've ever met is less passionate about NFL football than I am. I read about NFL football, watch NFL football, study NFL football, and play Madden NFL football. There is no such thing as an NFL off-season as long as I can play Madden all year long.

Needless to say, there are VERY FEW people more passionate about NFL football than myself. I haven't watched a full game of ANY sport other than the NFL in years, but I make it a point to watch every single snap of every NFL game. I don't watch basketball, hockey, or baseball when it's on in the same room. I don't even watch college football. Imagine that I've never seen Andrew Luck nor RG3 play a football game.

That passion for NFL football simply pours over into Madden. My competitive nature simply molds my approach to playing Madden. As I watch, read, and study the NFL, I'm constantly thinking of how to duplicate the tactics in Madden so I can avoid the sting of a loss.

That said, there was once a time when I was far less serious about the NFL. Back then I watched basketball, football, baseball, etc... I also played video games featuring each of those sports and still remember those days.

I assert that my diffused interests in other sports games was the primary reason my Madden online career came with so many losses. Once I became a football player 365 days a year, ala Ray Lewis, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning - I saw a tremendous difference in the outcomes of my games.

Needless to say, I consider myself to be the hardest of the hardcore NFL fans - and I simulate that same ethic when I simulate NFL football in Madden.

Later