Madden vs Real Football

[Big FN Deal]

Madden vs real football is "Everything you see[notice] on Sundays vs "True to the game".

I think Madden under Ian and Phil did a solid job of representing NFL cosmetics but the issues come into play for the NFL processes. I kept trying to figure out why even the most visually stunning plays in Madden don't have that "WOW!" factor for me and I realized it's due to the process or lack thereof. Madden at this point, is more of a real football montage than a true representation. It's the equivalent of someone making a historical movie or book about WWII only depicting massive explosions, heroic acts and an occasional casualty, completely omitting tons of historical context.

I have wanted a Halftime and League wrap-up show this entire gen for Madden but it will not feel organic without football context in the game. A highlight is considered that because it's not routine, extraordinary and something most people didn't expect. Currently, Madden's gameplay is based in extraordinary plays, which consequently makes them ordinary and routine.

There should be a mode or setting in Madden where 5-7 minute quarters produce an incomplete football game according to stats, fatigue, injury, strategy and the general processes of a entire football game. Next-gen Madden has been fundamentally developed to be a Cliff Notes version of NFL football for playcalling, penalties, ratings, playbooks, drafting, free agency, player interaction, risk/reward and many other things, which encourages an "instant gratification" playstyle. Not many students would bother to read the whole book if the already know the test is based solely on specific parts.

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I think there may be some confusion about what I mean when I say "Fire the User." Personally, I find it hard to discuss the differences between real football and Madden without talking how the consequences for poor performance are incongruous. If there's no penalty for skipping practices, failing to watch film, prepare for opponents, or any of the things professional teams must do to avoid embarrassment on game day - it's almost impossible to simulate the pro football environment where firings happen all the time for less... Unfortunately, EA can't fire customers and it only exacerbates the other differences between reality and the virtual world when the least common denominator is allowed to play alongside the most serious players. Of all the things that would never happen in the NFL, having players consistently perform poorly and maintain their position is the most important and most overlooked. Later

You can't be serious.

I have to say - your comments just get more and more silly as they go on. People want the ON THE FIELD action to portray the fundamentals of football more accurately and you continue to go off on tangents that would require people who purchase a recreational video game to quit their jobs and become a digital coach in this made up world of pseudo NFL football?

...What the heck? I've never seen even a developer attempt to blow so much smoke when trying to explain a point. This is absolutely ridiculous. You've completely missed the point of why so many are no longer enamored with this series. In fact, this is something I would expect be proposed by the developers who were let go of Madden a few years back.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Unfortunately, EA can't fire customers and it only exacerbates the other differences between reality and the virtual world when the least common denominator is allowed to play alongside the most serious players. Of all the things that would never happen in the NFL, having players consistently perform poorly and maintain their position is the most important and most overlooked.

Then what EA needs is a ranked matchmaking system.

Like in SC2 - I'm a Silver league player. When I go into an online ranked game, I am never matched with a guy who plays the game for a living, literally (i.e. for money leagues, etc, those guys are mostly Grandmaster league players). I'm matched with people who are generally around my skill or people the matchmaker thinks I have a shot at beating.

So my lowly ability at the game impact none of their enjoyment. Balancing and such is for the top tiers (Masters, Grandmasters) and everyone else has to learn their way up.

If Madden had a similar outlook - Madden could be made with complexity and both fundamental and advanced football knowledge in mind.

Then the online arena has the pick-up games (unranked) and the ranked games. When a player selects to play a ranked game, EA could match them with all other players looking for a ranked game in the same general skill level (there would a skill rating or similar and the matchmaker could select within +/- a certain range. Wins increase your rating and losses drop it based on your and your opponent's rating).

As players get better and beat progressively better opponents, they start facing better competition and will need to hold their own, or sink back down. So if a player "doesn't do his homework" and gets owned by people who have better knowledge of the game - both on turf and in the virtual world - they won't be facing those players for long until they get better.

This is a pretty "heartless" system, and it is not perfect (you can cheese and win, etc, but it will get you only so far), but it would keep ranked games more orderly and more around your skill level - and there's incentive to improve (if you care about your ranking), a penalty for losing too much (losing league rank) and no one gets banned for not being uber at that game.

That seems like a much more workable and plausible system (considering it's happening as we speak on Blizzard's servers) than any notions of outright "firing" or banning players.

Weak teams do not get contracted in the NFL after all. Bad players do exist in the league, as do bad teams and bad coaches. They just sink in the stat columns and teams fall in the standings, this serves the same purpose.

[Soprano00]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

As players get better and beat progressively better opponents, they start facing better competition and will need to hold their own, or sink back down. So if a player "doesn't do his homework" and gets owned by people who have better knowledge of the game - both on turf and in the virtual world - they won't be facing those players for long until they get better.

I didn't get your point: this is exactly how Madden's online matchmaking system works.

[Soprano00]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

I have to say - your comments just get more and more silly as they go on. People want the ON THE FIELD action to portray the fundamentals of football more accurately and you continue to go off on tangents that would require people who purchase a recreational video game to quit their jobs and become a digital coach in this made up world of pseudo NFL football?

He's been told the very same thing since page 1, but (for some reasons I cannot understand, or I prefer to not understand) he refuses to stick to the point and keep confusing simulating the game play with simulating a competitive and professional environment.

His problem is the lack of adequate opponents which dedicates their lives to practice Madden and I can understand it (both the problem and the lack), but it's definitively off topic in this thread.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Soprano00

I didn't get your point: this is exactly how Madden's online matchmaking system works.

In SC2 - it's much more segregated.

To use me as an example, I'm in the Silver league - I have to win a LOT and VERY consistently for the opportunity to move to Gold league.

I can't just beat a Silver league player and then now I've facing Gold level competition. Then if I lose, I'm back to Silver. Then if I lose, I'm in Bronze again.

Each league basically has it's on W/L record. I might have gone 20-5 to get out Bronze, but that's pretty much moot. In Silver. If I'm about a .500-.600 player in Silver - I'm staying put.

This creates very defined tiers of ability since everyone settles in with moving up or down happens only with a long-term winning/losing against your level of opponents and then you have to do the same against higher level, for a promotion, or lower level, when facing demotion (the system will "test" you higher or lower when the situation arises).

Is it like that in M12 too?

The way TNT describes it, let's say he's a Masters league player - he queues for a game, and he's getting matched against a Bronze player, whipping them while watching them make tons of errors, etc, and not giving him a good game.

[Only1LT]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

PG, I just got my "final warning" from a mod regarding talking down to people... So I must be REALLY CAREFUL about how I address your comment to prevent you guys from missing out on my CD reports. I was told specifically that I am "not a Madden god." Apparently I should be more like Rex Ryan and tell every player how amazing they are, and how great we are as a team of Madden players, and how every player is the epitome of SIM even though they haven't or won't simulate the tactics that real players use. So let me address your previous post under the full realization that every post you read from me from now on might be the last I ever post at OS. You have my priorities reversed... I love football. I play Madden. I would play football if I weren't almost 40 years old, 5'6", and 135 lbs. Since I'm too old to begin an NFL career and to small to be taken seriously, I chose Madden to exorcise my football passion. Indeed if I had ever had any shot at playing football in the NFL, I may have never played Madden. Please, please, please (satisfying the mods) never ever draw this conclusion again in spite of my dozens of attempts to emphasize FOOTBALL FIRST - MADDEN SECOND. Later

I pretty much never reply to your posts. I think I'll live longer that way lol.

We rarely see eye to eye on anything Football videogame related, and that's fine, we don't have to. Although, I did give you a thumbs up for one of your posts in this thread, because it was well said, albeit with your usual condescending flair lol, and I couldn't argue with your points.

You managed to be condescending in this post too, even while trying to explain that you turned over a new leaf for talking down to people lol. Somehow it was missed, and I won't point it out. I bring it up because I thought that it was funny. Regardless of our differences, I don't care to see you get banned from the site. If anything, I don't want anyone banned. Including trollers. I'm of the opinion that we are all grownups here and should be able to ignore juvenile behavior and see it for what it is and move on, but this isn't my site, nor am I a mod so...

To the point. I'm not going to debate you on anything Madden related. I checked out in that department long before Pared's post.

I did want to respond to one thing though that stuck out at me. You say that Football comes first and Madden second, when others contend that your priorities are reversed. I guess I will have to take your word on that. I don't doubt the passion that you have for Football. I've seen you speak of the many books you've read and the time you've spent learning the game. Very admirable and enough props can't be given for your level of enthusiasm and dedication in that regard. So I know that your love for Football is real. That, to me, is undeniable.

But there is one thing that just doesn't sit right with me about you saying it's Football, then Madden. Something that despite all of love that I feel you have for the game of Football, that makes me feel your love of Madden is just a touch stronger. That one thing is this. I know people that eat, sleep, and breath Football. I happen to be one of them. So I think I have a frame of reference on the matter. Doesn't mean it can't be wrong, but I have one none the less.

The sticking point for me is that, as a person who has an undying love for Football, and as someone that loves videogames, I play Football videogames. Couldn't get enough of them. Other than NFL Fever, because I've never owned a Microsoft console, I've played pretty much every Football game ever made. Going back to handheld Football games that represented players as red LED lights lol. I couldn't get enough of them. While others were engaging in flame wars of what game was better, all the while having never played the rival game, I was playing both and actually seeing the pros and cons of both offerings. Therein lies where I feel that your Football before Madden Protestation falls apart. You play Madden. That's it...

Now I know you've played competitors in the past, so I'm not saying that you have never played anything but Madden ever, but I know that is no longer the case and hasn't been for a long time. Even more damning, you have said that this will not change. What...?

How can you say that you don't love Madden more than Football, when you have absolutely no desire to even TRY another Football game, now, or at any point in the future? These are your words. You admit that you have never tried 2K and that you have no interest in doing so. Backbreaker isn't the greatest Football game ever made, but even if it were, you would undoubtedly have zero interest in playing it either. Furthermore, if the day came when the NFL license is no longer exclusive ( ) and there is another NFL game on the market, you would have no interest in even TRYING that either would you?

This is based off of what you have said to me and others in the past. You are a Maddenite. No interest in playing anything else. Now you might say that it's because I hate Madden that I play all these other games. I would say first, I don't hate Madden. Second, I love Football and therefore Football videogames. I could care less who makes a great Football videogame or what it's called. I only care that I can play it. You, on the other hand, are Madden and nothing else, EVER.

If that is the case, it begs the question: How can you say that you aren't a Madden fan first and a Football fan second, when you have zero interest in any other Football game, even those that haven't even been made yet, besides Madden???

[Pared]

I have to apologize to the community as I added fuel myself to this bit. But we are getting back to the topic and that is Madden vs. Real Football.

This thread is not about TNT713 nor should it be made out to be. I would ask everyone to get back on topic as there has been enough of this in the forum.

My apologies again, Soprano.

Everyone, again, back to the topic. Here is the original question so it can be discussed:

Quote: Originally Posted by Soprano00

We all know plays abused by cheesers and unfair gamers in Madden. Question is why those plays are a good choice in Madden and not in Real Football ? I'm talking about: A) Going for it on 4th down instead of punting. Why is in Madden almost always convenient to do it ? B) Online kicks. Why everybody does it in Madden while is quite rare to see it in RF ? C) QB scrambles. Same questions. D) No huddle all the time. Same questions. E) Punt return. Practically everybody goes for the fair catch. What shall EA do in the next Madden release to fix these issues ? Shall EA enforce a "sim" mode that disallow those practices except for the 4th quarter ?

In terms of the questions posed:

A - I think more NFL teams are going for it on 4th than ever before. At least, that was my impression this year. I am not sure of the statistics.

The rest are just a matter to how people play online. You will same sort of silliness in NBA 2k, NBA Live, MLB The Show, NHL, FIFA... people just do not play realistically. Part of the reason is you have no idea how old your opponent is. Another part is there ARE people who simply view this as a video game and nothing more.

Until the developers come up with a way to artificially curb these tactics, there is nothing anyone can do. And even then, I'm sure they will upset those that actually ENJOY playing this way. Honestly - that's bad for business.