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A Reality Check About Game Development

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Old 04-03-2012, 08:57 AM   #49
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadman
Hey T, how's it going.

I agree with what you said, but there are 5 million buyers purchasing subpar products.
Wasup Buddy , all is good thanks for asking.

5 million are buying , but its the only NFL game around. We all know the love for NFL football is strong, so the passion for the sports plays a big role with sales.

This is one sport that can kind of get away with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBzrule
Bottom line is this. What you start with places a limit on what you can do later. I do believe that they work hard with what they have. I have a bachelor's in computer science and I chose not to go that route because that's some work that I could not see myself doing. But bottom line is the technological selections that were made from the beginning put a limit on what is possible now. I don't like the technological decision they made in 2005 and I do not like many of the design decisions they made early on either. That stuff continues to impact the game right now. To me there are things I want that they cannot do with the technological basis that they started with. I might be wrong, and I would love to be proven wrong, but right now I just don't see it. No sense in getting mad, but I don't have to accept it either. I'm either going to accept it and play it for what it is or I'm just going to cut ties and enjoy other things.
I knew you was speaking about the engine. This has been my case for years. Once I layed my eyes on Madden 06 for the 360. I knew things were going to be horrid for us Madden gamers.

What puzzles me is NCAA seems to be making better use of the engine, so I hope madden can begin to do so, and give us a solid Madden product before the next XBOX and PS system launch.

My gut tells me that Madden 13 will be a pleasant surprise. Nothing mind blowing, but somethng really heading in the right direction.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:22 AM   #50
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

I'm a hardcore football fan. Was a big 2k guy. I've adjusted and started to buy Madden.

I skip a year, buy used and last year bought it new.

I have to say, it is kinda depressing to see that even after pretty much ignoring any Madden talk on forums for an extended period of time, the same discussions are taking place that took place years ago.

"Madden failing to add this... Madden failing to refine this.... Madden adding this useless thing...."

I know majority of the world seems to think Madden is ok, but it feels so helpless to try to play this game and be unhappy at the product. You want to play because of your love for the NFL.

I tried Backbreaker just looking for something....I'll try any game looking for something and someone to offer a product that I'll love.

I play NBA 2k and just WISH that I could get a football game with this type of detail.

Is it hard to make a game in a year? Yeah it is. 2k gradually improved until it got to 2k5. Madden to me hasn't made those improvements.

I just want them to make a complete game that doesn't give the appearance of a refurbished game with new rosters and car washed graphics.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:40 AM   #51
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrant8RDFL
Wasup Buddy , all is good thanks for asking.

5 million are buying , but its the only NFL game around. We all know the love for NFL football is strong, so the passion for the sports plays a big role with sales.

This is one sport that can kind of get away with it.



I knew you was speaking about the engine. This has been my case for years. Once I layed my eyes on Madden 06 for the 360. I knew things were going to be horrid for us Madden gamers.

What puzzles me is NCAA seems to be making better use of the engine, so I hope madden can begin to do so, and give us a solid Madden product before the next XBOX and PS system launch.

My gut tells me that Madden 13 will be a pleasant surprise. Nothing mind blowing, but somethng really heading in the right direction.
Maybe im in the minority here, but I loved that 06 engine for the fact I seen where it could have went and where I thought they were headed with it. Players were like true to their size for the most part and all was needed was the addition of more physics and gameplay foundation like it is now.

I always felt it was bad of them to have abandoned that engine and at the sametime I felt it was really filthy of them to cash in on nex gen like they did. In fact I believe I still own my 360 copy of that game but I no longer own a 360.

All in all, I just wish they stick to something instead of each iteration feeling like a 'tug of war' between which direction they want to go with the game!

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Old 04-03-2012, 12:00 PM   #52
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

I listened to the show again thinking maybe I missed something. No, I got it.

But I don't get it. Like a few others have said, why would I care how hard their job is? Why would I care what it takes to make the game more realistic? My roll as a gamer & OS member is to play the game, discuss the game & make suggestions. It's a devs job to turn those suggestions into code.

Regardless of my lack of game development knowledge, I feel strongly about EA's misuse of time. From what I can tell, they spend much of their time minipulating things to get realistic results with virtual athletes that don't move like human beings and don't think like football players. At what point do you stop devoting time to band-aids and direct it towards real improvements? When do you address the poor foundation LBzrule mentioned?

I'll be understanding when I see time devoted to real improvements. If '13 drops and the footwork is on point, for example, but there wasn't enought time to do anything else, I'll understand. But if they do what they did with '12 (& '11 & '10...), add features that don't work, on top of other poor coding, it's just more wasted time.

6-9 months is a long time when you release virtually the same game with peripheral improvements & additions. But I didn't understand why Da Czar said devs are only working on a game for 6-9 months. Is he not counting patch time? Are devs taking 3 month vacations? If you work on the game for 9 months, release it, and work on a patch for 3 months, that's still 12 months of work on the game. Do better EA.
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:13 PM   #53
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
Wait...you're saying that having to put a man in motion instead of being able to actually call a true, realistic protection scheme is a minor problem?
Yes I am saying that motioning a blocker to the backside to compensate for the inability to separate a back's blocking assignment from the Slide Protect functions is a MINOR problem. Alas, moving a blocker close to the man he's supposed to block is as true and realistic a blocking scheme as any.

I had to reread my post to make sure I didn't say that motioning a blocker was the ONLY way to compensate for this MINOR problem. There are at least 5-6 other effective ways to get the backside guy blocked, this was merely one suggestion that works particularly well with MY OFFENSE. You may find other methods beyond the scope of what I've discovered to compensate for this minor problem. If there wasn't a way to compensate, it would be a MAJOR PROBLEM.

Regarding FBPro's demise... I saw the constant nitpicking of the most vocal forum members as part of the reason sales dropped. It got to the point that the haters convinced consumers that would have probably been happy with the game not to buy it. The publisher saw the expenses to create the game, compared it to the revenue generated from sales, and cut the legs out from under the series and any fans that actually were getting what they wanted.

Meanwhile, there was a core group of fans who were eerily aware of all the flaws to FBPro - but loved the game anyway. They are always the ones that really suffer when haters post venom that kill sales. I'm one of the guys that was waiting eagerly for FBPro 99 - only for the haters to kill the release. It wasn't like they were selling 5 million units so it was an easy decision for Sierra to make.

Oddly, in my observations of the FBPro communities - the issues with players were identical to the issues Madden players have today. Unskilled players hated the loudest and used the mos derisive language when talking about the flaws in the game - even when their playcall/design skills weren't up to par.

Later
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:26 PM   #54
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

"Game development" doesn't matter in maddens case because the majority of what people request is features that were taken out of madden
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:27 PM   #55
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
Regardless of my lack of game development knowledge, I feel strongly about EA's misuse of time. From what I can tell, they spend much of their time minipulating things to get realistic results with virtual athletes that don't move like human beings and don't think like football players. At what point do you stop devoting time to band-aids and direct it towards real improvements? When do you address the poor foundation LBzrule mentioned?

I'll be understanding when I see time devoted to real improvements. If '13 drops and the footwork is on point, for example, but there wasn't enought time to do anything else, I'll understand. But if they do what they did with '12 (& '11 & '10...), add features that don't work, on top of other poor coding, it's just more wasted time.

6-9 months is a long time when you release virtually the same game with peripheral improvements & additions. But I didn't understand why Da Czar said devs are only working on a game for 6-9 months. Is he not counting patch time? Are devs taking 3 month vacations? If you work on the game for 9 months, release it, and work on a patch for 3 months, that's still 12 months of work on the game. Do better EA.
How can one say they lack knowledge of the development process in one breath (internet breath) then turn around in the next sentence and chastise the devs regarding a process that he's already admitted to being ignorant of?

If I recall, DaCzar made this tendency from consumers the entire basis of the 30 minutes of the show. The key point I took away from the show was this:

If consumers don't know what devs do, how, or why they do it - it becomes virtually impossible to engage them in a meaningful way that brings about positive change in the game. For instance, if someone lacks understanding of the dev process, it logically proceeds that they shouldn't make judgements about the process they don't understand.

We seem to want realistic without being realistic.

Later
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Old 04-03-2012, 01:39 PM   #56
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Re: A Reality Check About Game Development

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNT713
Oddly, in my observations of the FBPro communities - the issues with players were identical to the issues Madden players have today. Unskilled players hated the loudest and used the mos derisive language when talking about the flaws in the game - even when their playcall/design skills weren't up to par.

Later
I'll be the first to admit that I wasn't around in the gaming community enough yet to know much about FBPro 99 so I can't really relate to that argument, I was 6 or 7 when it would have been released lol and I was much more into Crash Bandicoot and Spyro than sports games at that age.

But why does everything come back to people being "unskilled" as the reason for the unhappiness with the game? Why can't a player who is skilled still have a problem with the game? The game doesn't accurately represent on the field play and concepts so it would make sense if a player who had football knowledge AND was skilled could understand better why the game was flawed (much like KB and many of the other regulars in these arguments with their football knowledge.)

I just don't understand what the two have to do with each other...being skilled and thinking Madden does the game of football justice are mutually exclusive. They are completely separate from each other, so I don't get the mention of it here.
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