player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

[1D4ever]

Quote: Originally Posted by gjneff

There definitely needs to be a value rating to replace the overall. All the factors including ratings, production, coaches, and schemes should generate their value. That would solve the argument for most involved.

The overal has nothing to do with it at this point in the franchise player lose point at certain skill be cause Madden Programed them to. The overal is just average of certain ratings its just information.

I had a WR who Had the all time lead season season record in receiving yards in a season and receiving TDs he finish 3rd in MVP voting and won SB MVP, he was 30 he lost like 3 overall points 2 speed and ACC point he lost catch and Awr points as well. If they removed overral this would still happen but it would just be hard to tell. The wasy they have it Kurt Warner is impossible.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1D4ever

The overal has nothing to do with it at this point in the franchise player lose point at certain skill be cause Madden Programed them to. The overal is just average of certain ratings its just information. I had a WR who Had the all time lead season season record in receiving yards in a season and receiving TDs he finish 3rd in MVP voting and won SB MVP, he was 30 he lost like 3 overall points 2 speed and ACC point he lost catch and Awr points as well. If they removed overral this would still happen but it would just be hard to tell. The wasy they have it Kurt Warner is impossible.

Let me ask this to everyone and anyone.

Let me try this analogy. If I race in a car that can only go up to 120mph according to the speedometer has slick tires, poor handling, a windshield with poor visibility and is slow out the gate but I manage to somehow still win races with it, does that mean that the car improved?

Good stats should have nothing to do directly with player progression. The main debunker to that whole claim is that if that were the case rookie players that get thrown in to learn by fire/trial and error, like Payton Manning, should be hot garbage the next year because of their stats.

Progression-regression should be about learning a system, improving technique and playing time all in relation to coaching along with injury and aging factored in. Stats should just be about team/player contract evaluations and awards.

This all my opinion.

[truffleshuffle]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Let me ask this to everyone and anyone. Let me try this analogy. If I race in a car that can only go up to 120mph according to the speedometer has slick tires, poor handling, a windshield with poor visibility and is slow out the gate but I manage to somehow still win races with it, does that mean that the car improved? Good stats should have nothing to do directly with player progression. The main debunker to that whole claim is that if that were the case rookie players that get thrown in to learn by fire/trial and error, like Payton Manning, should be hot garbage the next year because of their stats. Progression-regression should be about learning a system, improving technique and playing time all in relation to coaching along with injury and aging factored in. Stats should just be about team/player contract evaluations and awards. This all my opinion.

In racing the cars are supposed to start out equal at least in nascar. Not so much in the nfl. Like the poster above me said. If there was no way to change a F into a A there would be no Kurt Warner or other players that were evaluated not worth a shot. Right now thats what madden gives you basicly saying you can;t turn a peice of coal into a diamond.So if you start out with a player with crappy raitings hes basicly cannon fodder. Just kinda like my player No matter how good of seasons he has he was going down in potintal and ovr no matter what. I could have edited the situation instide of griping on here about it but I wanted as much realisam as I could get and in real life you cant edit your skills to make them what you want.I would not have minded him going down a little in points you espect a few deminished skills but six points and in position to be cut was a bit extream.

[1D4ever]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Let me ask this to everyone and anyone. Let me try this analogy. If I race in a car that can only go up to 120mph according to the speedometer has slick tires, poor handling, a windshield with poor visibility and is slow out the gate but I manage to somehow still win races with it, does that mean that the car improved? Good stats should have nothing to do directly with player progression. The main debunker to that whole claim is that if that were the case rookie players that get thrown in to learn by fire/trial and error, like Payton Manning, should be hot garbage the next year because of their stats. Progression-regression should be about learning a system, improving technique and playing time all in relation to coaching along with injury and aging factored in. Stats should just be about team/player contract evaluations and awards. This all my opinion.

No what that tells you is your car is a whole lot better than you thought and should be re-evaulated and in no way should you give it the same rating as you did before you knew you could do that in it. That's and why inseason progression is so important. To make it worse The Next season he is leading the league again at Week 12 and the front runner for MVP, I simmed to the end and he lost the same amount of points in the same areas the next season, at that point I stopped playing that franchise. The current gen Madden does agree with you however.

[gjneff]

Quote: Originally Posted by 1D4ever

The overal has nothing to do with it at this point in the franchise player lose point at certain skill be cause Madden Programed them to. The overal is just average of certain ratings its just information. I had a WR who Had the all time lead season season record in receiving yards in a season and receiving TDs he finish 3rd in MVP voting and won SB MVP, he was 30 he lost like 3 overall points 2 speed and ACC point he lost catch and Awr points as well. If they removed overral this would still happen but it would just be hard to tell. The wasy they have it Kurt Warner is impossible.

That was my point, overall doesn't matter. In this case he would probably get a little worse physically with age and maybe a little in skill, but his value would be higher to the team because he was capable of producing when needed.

[gjneff]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Let me ask this to everyone and anyone. Let me try this analogy. If I race in a car that can only go up to 120mph according to the speedometer has slick tires, poor handling, a windshield with poor visibility and is slow out the gate but I manage to somehow still win races with it, does that mean that the car improved? Good stats should have nothing to do directly with player progression. The main debunker to that whole claim is that if that were the case rookie players that get thrown in to learn by fire/trial and error, like Payton Manning, should be hot garbage the next year because of their stats. Progression-regression should be about learning a system, improving technique and playing time all in relation to coaching along with injury and aging factored in. Stats should just be about team/player contract evaluations and awards. This all my opinion.

This is my point, they wouldn't get better, but they would have more value to the team. If you have a player that produced 1500 yards, you or another team are going to value (pay) him more than someone who had 150.

[paarman]

This is my opinion of a partial way in which progression should work:

Each position should have an age at which they start to decline. Each declared age (maybe by each year they get older) have a 'bar' in which they have to reach to maintain or progress, ie. get 1000 yards at 30, get 800 yards at 32 or go by YPC.. or something of the sort. If they meet it or exceed it, they stay the same or go up in rating. If they get injured or don't meet the "goal" they drop, all depending on their age is how much they drop.

I think having a realistic goal for the age of the player, or a realistic set of stat categories in which they would have to meet to improve their rating, or show they "still have some in the tank" would be pretty similar to how older players work now-a-days. The system they have now I think is sufficient for younger players, but they need to improve players that hit their peak. If they can still perform at a high level when they are at or near the age in which most fall off, their progression should reflect it.

Thats just one aspect of how I thought it should work. Or base something close to it. I play my franchise with the specific goal of drafting young players to watch them grow throughout years of play, so I enjoy watching them progress when I play as hard as I can with them throughout seasons. It disappoints me when players hit ~30 and they just fall off no matter how well they play.

[Argooos]

Quote: Originally Posted by xblake16x

Argooos, Are you thinking the same thing I am... Where is bucky60?

Hahaha I kinda miss those debates.

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The simple fact here is that there is a big divide amongst Madden players about how progression should work. Some want good performance to be rewarded by progression - others feel that such a thing is highly unrealistic. I fall somewhere in between, and here's why: I completely agree that rewarding stats with progression in unrealistic, and in an ideal world that's not how it should work. However, I like having my performance, and the performance of my players, have a tangible effect on the development of my team. I find that fun, and I'd wager so do a lot of people.

What I think would solve this debate is if they finally added in systems and tied them to coaches and then based offseason progression on coaches, the system, the players work ethic, age, potential, how well they fit into the system, and a touch of randomness.
But what about the people who want their players' performance to influence their ratings? The answer to that I think lies in DPP. DPP should result in actual noticeable changes to players actual ratings, so that a player's OVR may actually go up or down several points if they are on a hot or cold streak. That way if Mewelde Moore kept putting up big numbers, he would go on a hot streak, and his attributes would increase accordingly. I'm pretty sure this is what already happens, but the game does it under the hood and doesn't show you what attributes have actually changed. If they showed us our players actually increasing or decreasing in stats (albeit temporarily), that would satisfy many people's need to see their performance result in ratings changes. It would also be realistic, because it would cause realistic depth chart changes throughout the season due to player performance.