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Play Recognition vs Speed

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Old 05-05-2012, 04:51 PM   #1
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Play Recognition vs Speed

I was having a breakfast conversation with a friend of mine this morning and we got to talking about Zach Brown, OLB North Carolina, who was drafted by the Titans. We were talking about his speed. We also discussed the knock on him by a lot of scouts, namely his tendency to avoid contact, which if you are a linebacker, that's something that has to be broken. I mentioned Ray Lewis and how Lewis probably runs a 4.8/4.9 now in the 40 but with his instincts, when you look at both Lewis and Brown play, I bet Lewis will look faster playing than Brown does. Ideally, you get someone like Patrick Willis that will give you the best of both worlds. I would like to see this be more of a factor in Madden. I don't care that a linebacker runs a 4.4 in the 40. If his instincts/play recognition is garbage and if he seeks to avoid contact, then he's going to get into a gap guessing game. This should not be a good player off the jump and should take time to develop. EA leaves development of players too much up to their A.I and I think that needs to change.

I think a good system to put in place is the one NBA 2k12 has where you earn points through your season based on success and you can spend those points sending players to specific camps to improve areas of weakness. With Brown you could send him to offseason film study to better his play recognition. Each player is limited to one camp per offseason. This means if I send him to film study camp in his first offseason to improve his play recognition, then he's not going to pass rush camp, or pass coverage camp, or block shedding, ect., Keep in mind however, the jumps cannot be too significant. Now if you control Brown that's a different story somewhat. You should be able to get the most from his physical attributes, however, even when you control him, if you get blocked you should struggle to get off.

I would rather have a system like this where I'm in control of some of the player development rather than leaving it up to the system EA has in place now, which to me is arbitrary as to how players develop based on a "potential grade." With the way some guys break through I think the assigned potential is not fair. Let me give an example. Victor Cruz broke through last year and no one saw that coming. He probably received a pretty low potential to start the season and then if you are in online franchise you gotta start with that and the guy will never progress to the threat he is now. I would rather the user have some input in player development that's all.

What do you guys think?
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Old 05-05-2012, 05:35 PM   #2
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Excellent post LB, I totally agree with what you are saying. I myself would like to see the "potential" system in Madden revamped, and I had an idea or two on how this could work. I would like to see every player in Madden have a boom or bust potential "grade" that ties into their development. This way, even guys with high attributes and ratings drafted in the first round can regress and bust out as well. Using this years draft for example, Andrew Luck would have an A boom potential and probably a B for bust potential. That B for bust potential would make it MORE likely that Luck performs more consistently, needs less of the camps that you are describing, and gives Luck a few more points to spend after completing said camps. Conversely, a player like Dontari Poe would have an A boom potential and a D or F bust potential. This would mean that even though Dontari Poe's initial "physical" attributes would be kind of high, he would still have to play well during the season in order to progress. Not only that, after completing said camps, he should get a few less points to spend than an Andrew Luck, simply because Poe's bust potential is a D or F as opposed to Luck's B.

I think this would make drafting very fair, simply because you couldn't focus on making ALL of your players perform well all of the time, so you are bound to have some picks that will eventually "bust out". To tie all of this together, once a draft pick establishes himself as a "star" or "superstar" (based on his overall rating being in a certain range), maybe his bust potential changes to a C or B (if it isn't already there) to ensure that he starts performing more consistently every year like stars do. This way you can establish/find "Victor Cruz" type of stars from lower round picks, but it will be much harder to mold them because of a terrible "bust" grade holding them back some. Heck, maybe even the players with the B bust grade can still regress (albeit it slowly) if they don't perform consistently every year. Even superstars in the NFL have to keep working hard once they hit "the top", and Madden should be no different.

I also quickly wanted to state that with my "system" every player should have an A boom potential, so that theoretically a "star" can come from any round in the draft. The key to their development would be their on-field performance along with their "bust potential" grade. While I am at it, I feel "uncontrollable regression" needs to be totally redone and based off of the player's position. As it stands in Madden right now, once a player hits 30, that's pretty much it, they will begin regressing (except for a select few players). What I would like to see is QB's & WR's being able to hold their ratings well into their mid 30's, RB's begin regressing once they hit 29-30, etc... Of course there can be exceptions to these "rules", but there should not be very many at all.

If potentials were "hidden" and all we had to go off of were scouting reports from our teams "scouting department" that would make things even more interesting. Even if EA decided not to hide potentials, a much more dynamic system needs to be put in place, as what we currently have to deal with in Madden just ain't cutting it. EA also needs to add a true "hustle" or "motor" rating that effects the consistency of a players performance, so that again, spending points in that area on a player like Dontari Poe would be CRUCIAL to his overall development.

Last edited by Illustrator76; 05-05-2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:31 PM   #3
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illustrator76
Excellent post LB, I totally agree with what you are saying. I myself would like to see the "potential" system in Madden revamped, and I had an idea or two on how this could work. I would like to see every player in Madden have a boom or bust potential "grade" that ties into their development. This way, even guys with high attributes and ratings drafted in the first round can regress and bust out as well. Using this years draft for example, Andrew Luck would have an A boom potential and probably a B for bust potential. That B for bust potential would make it MORE likely that Luck performs more consistently, needs less of the camps that you are describing, and gives Luck a few more points to spend after completing said camps. Conversely, a player like Dontari Poe would have an A boom potential and a D or F bust potential. This would mean that even though Dontari Poe's initial "physical" attributes would be kind of high, he would still have to play well during the season in order to progress. Not only that, after completing said camps, he should get a few less points to spend than an Andrew Luck, simply because Poe's bust potential is a D or F as opposed to Luck's B.

I think this would make drafting very fair, simply because you couldn't focus on making ALL of your players perform well all of the time, so you are bound to have some picks that will eventually "bust out". To tie all of this together, once a draft pick establishes himself as a "star" or "superstar" (based on his overall rating being in a certain range), maybe his bust potential changes to a C or B (if it isn't already there) to ensure that he starts performing more consistently every year like stars do. This way you can establish/find "Victor Cruz" type of stars from lower round picks, but it will be much harder to mold them because of a terrible "bust" grade holding them back some. Heck, maybe even the players with the B bust grade can still regress (albeit it slowly) if they don't perform consistently every year. Even superstars in the NFL have to keep working hard once they hit "the top", and Madden should be no different.

I also quickly wanted to state that with my "system" every player should have an A boom potential, so that theoretically a "star" can come from any round in the draft. The key to their development would be their on-field performance along with their "bust potential" grade. While I am at it, I feel "uncontrollable regression" needs to be totally redone and based off of the player's position. As it stands in Madden right now, once a player hits 30, that's pretty much it, they will begin regressing (except for a select few players). What I would like to see is QB's & WR's being able to hold their ratings well into their mid 30's, RB's begin regressing once they hit 29-30, etc... Of course there can be exceptions to these "rules", but there should not be very many at all.

If potentials were "hidden" and all we had to go off of were scouting reports from our teams "scouting department" that would make things even more interesting. Even if EA decided not to hide potentials, a much more dynamic system needs to be put in place, as what we currently have to deal with in Madden just ain't cutting it. EA also needs to add a true "hustle" or "motor" rating that effects the consistency of a players performance, so that again, spending points in that area on a player like Dontari Poe would be CRUCIAL to his overall development.
The issue is, not every player should have "A" boom potential. Victor Cruz was an abiration, not the rule. I think that undraftedgems are rare enough that they can be kept in the current format. I agree that there should be some kind of rating indicating safeness of the prospect, though. Dontari Poe was thought to be a bad pick over David DeCastro because one of them will be in pro bowls guranteed in the future, while one quite possibly will be out of the league in 3 years. It is a question mark, and it makes a player like Poe OP in Madden.

The issue that will ultimately spark from this is someone will want a player like Cliff Harris to have "A" potential due to great physical attributes, and it will make things hard for the user to determine who is actually worth having on a team. Another possible issue is some crazy Kellen Moore lover will believe that he has "A" potential due to his ability to win(at least when backed up by a team that so much better than any other team they face) when in reality he is nothing more than a game manager at best. This will create issues because potential is incredibly subjective. I, personally, would never want a quarterback who has to take 5 steps to throw the ball accurately 20 yards away, but someone else will quite possibly believe that he will one day be the best QB in the league. He will almost definitely not bust, due to a relatively high floor, but his ceiling is incredibly subjective.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:32 PM   #4
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illustrator76
Excellent post LB, I totally agree with what you are saying. I myself would like to see the "potential" system in Madden revamped, and I had an idea or two on how this could work. I would like to see every player in Madden have a boom or bust potential "grade" that ties into their development. This way, even guys with high attributes and ratings drafted in the first round can regress and bust out as well. Using this years draft for example, Andrew Luck would have an A boom potential and probably a B for bust potential. That B for bust potential would make it MORE likely that Luck performs more consistently, needs less of the camps that you are describing, and gives Luck a few more points to spend after completing said camps. Conversely, a player like Dontari Poe would have an A boom potential and a D or F bust potential. This would mean that even though Dontari Poe's initial "physical" attributes would be kind of high, he would still have to play well during the season in order to progress. Not only that, after completing said camps, he should get a few less points to spend than an Andrew Luck, simply because Poe's bust potential is a D or F as opposed to Luck's B.

I think this would make drafting very fair, simply because you couldn't focus on making ALL of your players perform well all of the time, so you are bound to have some picks that will eventually "bust out". To tie all of this together, once a draft pick establishes himself as a "star" or "superstar" (based on his overall rating being in a certain range), maybe his bust potential changes to a C or B (if it isn't already there) to ensure that he starts performing more consistently every year like stars do. This way you can establish/find "Victor Cruz" type of stars from lower round picks, but it will be much harder to mold them because of a terrible "bust" grade holding them back some. Heck, maybe even the players with the B bust grade can still regress (albeit it slowly) if they don't perform consistently every year. Even superstars in the NFL have to keep working hard once they hit "the top", and Madden should be no different.

I also quickly wanted to state that with my "system" every player should have an A boom potential, so that theoretically a "star" can come from any round in the draft. The key to their development would be their on-field performance along with their "bust potential" grade. While I am at it, I feel "uncontrollable regression" needs to be totally redone and based off of the player's position. As it stands in Madden right now, once a player hits 30, that's pretty much it, they will begin regressing (except for a select few players). What I would like to see is QB's & WR's being able to hold their ratings well into their mid 30's, RB's begin regressing once they hit 29-30, etc... Of course there can be exceptions to these "rules", but there should not be very many at all.

If potentials were "hidden" and all we had to go off of were scouting reports from our teams "scouting department" that would make things even more interesting. Even if EA decided not to hide potentials, a much more dynamic system needs to be put in place, as what we currently have to deal with in Madden just ain't cutting it. EA also needs to add a true "hustle" or "motor" rating that effects the consistency of a players performance, so that again, spending points in that area on a player like Dontari Poe would be CRUCIAL to his overall development.
I like the boom or bust idea and scouting reports. I'm not sure about everyone having A Potential though. I think you should be given a chance to choose the scouting entity for your team. You should have some options. You should be able to choose scouting personnel that relies heavily on scouting services, like Mel Kiper Jr., McShay, Mayock and they set your draft board based on the reports these analyst give, of you have a team of scouts that scout for you based on region and they give you feedback on what they see from big and small schools in a particular region. Then your draft board is based on that. Not that you might diverge. So for instance, if I say, I want to heavily scout the southeast then most of the guys that are going to be on the top of my draft board are going to be from that region. This is actually why on draft day you wonder why some teams select who they select, it's because of the way scouting is done.

I don't like online franchise draft right now. Too generic. You just get a list of a bunch of players and their attributes and you set up your board. I would like scouting to be based more than on my eye. I think there should be a scouting service and they provide feed back on players and ask me questions. I think NCAA Online Dynasty, while not perfect does a much better job with this type of thing. Are you gonna trust Mel Kiper Jr/McShay, Mayock, or are you going to send you team of scouts to heavily scout a particular region and get feedback from your scouts?

Also, I would like to add, sometimes as it stands right now, a player doesn't even have to reach 30 and they'll start regressing. Last year after the first season in SFL, Cary Williams who was 27 regressed. Paul Kruger was 26 and Regressed. I was like huh??? What? How? LAME.

Last edited by LBzrule; 05-05-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:39 PM   #5
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by funnyfiggy
The issue is, not every player should have "A" boom potential. Victor Cruz was an abiration, not the rule. I think that undraftedgems are rare enough that they can be kept in the current format. I agree that there should be some kind of rating indicating safeness of the prospect, though. Dontari Poe was thought to be a bad pick over David DeCastro because one of them will be in pro bowls guranteed in the future, while one quite possibly will be out of the league in 3 years. It is a question mark, and it makes a player like Poe OP in Madden.

The issue that will ultimately spark from this is someone will want a player like Cliff Harris to have "A" potential due to great physical attributes, and it will make things hard for the user to determine who is actually worth having on a team. Another possible issue is some crazy Kellen Moore lover will believe that he has "A" potential due to his ability to win(at least when backed up by a team that so much better than any other team they face) when in reality he is nothing more than a game manager at best. This will create issues because potential is incredibly subjective. I, personally, would never want a quarterback who has to take 5 steps to throw the ball accurately 20 yards away, but someone else will quite possibly believe that he will one day be the best QB in the league. He will almost definitely not bust, due to a relatively high floor, but his ceiling is incredibly subjective.
But since we never know the "true" potential/ceiling of any player that is drafted, how can it NOT be an A for boom potential for everyone? You'd essentially be in the same boat as we are now, by having certain players that have a capped ceiling right off the bat, with little room for improvement, when in the NFL we never really know how far up any player can go. When it comes to a guy like Cliff Harris, he was thought to be one of the better corners in College Football before the slew of off-the-field issues and subsequent dismissal from the team at Oregon, so once again, who is to say that he shouldn't have an A boom potential and an F bust potential?

Justin Tuck, Jared Allen, Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Frank Gore, Matt Birk, Lance Briggs, Brian Westbrook, Marques Colston and Steve Smith are just a few Pro Bowl calibur players that were drafted in the 3rd round or later. Their "ceilings" were obviously a lot higher than what most people thought they were, or they would have been drafted in the first round.

Last edited by Illustrator76; 05-05-2012 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:42 PM   #6
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Let me add. I really don't like potential, but for a lack of a better concept I guess it is something that is needed. The reason I don't like potential is because a lot of it is based on media hype. Granted some players will pan out while others will not, but the media doesn't hear about a lot of small school players and it creates the perception that if a name is not known then they must not be good. Ohhh he was taken in the 4th round because nobody knows him. He must not be that good. I hate that logic.

This is exactly the reason why I would like for the user to have a choice of the type of scouting they want to rely on. You will get a guy like Mel Kiper Jr. hyping certain guys and then on draft day you wonder, why are teams passing over this guy? Classic example, the HB from Washington this year. Kiper had his rated pretty damn high. The kid went undrafted. What in the world? I know why and others should know why now, but the question here is do you listen to guys like Kiper, who are sometimes on the money but at other times they don't know what the hell they are talking about?
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #7
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illustrator76
But since we never know the "true" potential/ceiling of any player that is drafted, how can it NOT be an A for boom potential for everyone? You'd essentially be in the same boat as we are now, by having certain players that have a capped ceiling right off the bat, with little room for improvement, when in the NFL we never really know how far up any player can go. When it comes to a guy like Cliff Harris, he was thought to be one of the better corners in College Football before the slew of off-the-field issues and subsequent dismissal from the team at Oregon, so once again, who is to say that he shouldn't have an A boom potential and an F bust potential?
OK I see with the Boom/Bust idea. So essentially, let's just take Harris. A boom potential and F Bust potential would mean you have to monitor the player very carefully. He's not a sure thing to progress. You would need to motivate the player into programs. Or if we take the HB from Washington I mentioned in the last post. A boom potential, however, he might have F Bust potential due to medical red flags. Low Injury rating. Maybe with a player like this. Very limited snaps, get him into training and rehab programs in the offseason. I like the idea of nothing is guaranteed, which in real life, that's exactly how it is. There may be high probabilities that someone is going to succeed. There are no guarantees though.

Combine this with the scouting idea and I think it makes things a lot more interesting and risky.
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Old 05-05-2012, 06:51 PM   #8
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Re: Play Recognition vs Speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBzrule
Let me add. I really don't like potential, but for a lack of a better concept I guess it is something that is needed. The reason I don't like potential is because a lot of it is based on media hype. Granted some players will pan out while others will not, but the media doesn't hear about a lot of small school players and it creates the perception that if a name is not known then they must not be good. Ohhh he was taken in the 4th round because nobody knows him. He must not be that good. I hate that logic.

This is exactly the reason why I would like for the user to have a choice of the type of scouting they want to rely on. You will get a guy like Mel Kiper Jr. hyping certain guys and then on draft day you wonder, why are teams passing over this guy? Classic example, the HB from Washington this year. Kiper had his rated pretty damn high. The kid went undrafted. What in the world? I know why and others should know why now, but the question here is do you listen to guys like Kiper, who are sometimes on the money but at other times they don't know what the hell they are talking about?
I can totally understand that, but how would you govern how good or bad a player could ultimately be? What are your thoughts?
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