What is SIM Play Calling?

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

I really do not like using the word "broken" here. I'm not sure what word to use. I'll just say this, it's definitely not NFL front 7 play.

"Incorrect" works?

Because, that's what it is - incorrect football. The correct way for these plays has been laid out - Madden's M12 action is incorrect.

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

He is not saying that. He is saying that the OLB's pretty much never properly contain the edge when going against an outside run. Sure you can get them to make plays and stop plays like the quick toss from Strong Close but they are still not playing with proper technique. Its a big reason that most of the time against a toss it is up to the user to contain the edge with a MLB or a Safety in most Madden run defenses. Now we both know in real life the edge isn't always contained and mistakes happen but unless your OLB comes off the edge and sheds a block or comes in free he more than likely won't be making a play on the ball. Any good outside run is a battle between the defensive and the offensive front 7 and who can establish the edge. If the offensive line seals the edge you get a successful run most of the time while if they fail to seal the edge either through poor blocking or through proper defensive technique then the run gets bottled up and is either cut back, dropped in the backfield, or ran out of bounds. As it stands now without user intervention the only real way to stop a toss is to rely on poor blocking or attack it with CB's or Safeties flying in free. The defense (LB's especially) don't contain the edge properly which is the main problem with most tosses. Now I see no reason to limit how many tosses a player runs as anyone wishing to play sim is not going to run 25 toss plays a game but it doesn't change the fact that in this case Madden has some work to do before it properly represents real life.

Ok... Good I was all sorts of head scratching for a minute.

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[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

Wow! After all that BezO broke down about how the play is flawed because of a lack of contain assignments, run fits, and engaged mobility and this is what you got from it? I think this all comes down to the perspective of the individual. CR seems to be mainly concerned with the result of the play (success/failure), and not necessarily how it got there. With BezO, it's just the opposite. I didn't catch any sort of inference in what he typed that the toss was broken because of the success or failure of his defenders to stop it; it was all about his defenders to not functioning with proper football technique. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Yeah I figured that part out, I was just gonna chalk it up to different defensive play calling for a minute.

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[KOTC Wayne]

I have no problem with Sim play ad playcalling, I actually prefer it over freestyle play b/c what attracts me to Madden or any sports game for that matter is the realism of the game and its many people in the freestyle community that feel the same way. I hate when people say " its just a video game, if you want real life football you need to go play in the NFL " and stuff along those lines b/c if you are not playing Madden for the simulation of the NFL, then you might as well play games like BackBreaker which is more fun IMO if you are not looking for real life simulation. Forget NBA2k, might as well pop in NBA Jams b/c its just a video game, remember?

Anyway, you have a lot of players like myself that were sim style players ( everyone started out sim ) but seeing how EA can't get the basic foundations of the game right ( for example, the pass rush.... the trenches ), we sort of took matters into out own hands and we created generic ways of getting what EA is leaving out the game . I mean, me personally, instead of waiting till EA gets it right ( might be 20 years from now, might be on M13, might be never ) I'm more in favor of taking matters into my own hands to get the realistic results that EA is robbing us of and even though I'm getting those realistic results in a unrealistic way. I just imagine playing someone good with a team like the Saints or NE and playing the game in a sim matter just doing the blitzes that EA has to offer or trying to run a Tampa 2 base scheme with a team with a great pass rush like the Giants, you would get ate alive which would be unsim like results.

If EA gave / gives us a solid game from the roots on up, there wouldn't be no such thing as freestyle or sim to begin with, we would all be one.

[Smoke6]

Quote: Originally Posted by KOTC Wayne

I have no problem with Sim play ad playcalling, I actually prefer it over freestyle play b/c what attracts me to Madden or any sports game for that matter is the realism of the game and its many people in the freestyle community that feel the same way. I hate when people say " its just a video game, if you want real life football you need to go play in the NFL " and stuff along those lines b/c if you are not playing Madden for the simulation of the NFL, then you might as well play games like BackBreaker which is more fun IMO if you are not looking for real life simulation. Forget NBA2k, might as well pop in NBA Jams b/c its just a video game, remember? Anyway, you have a lot of players like myself that were sim style players ( everyone started out sim ) but seeing how EA can't get the basic foundations of the game right ( for example, the pass rush.... the trenches ), we sort of took matters into out own hands and we created generic ways of getting what EA is leaving out the game . I mean, me personally, instead of waiting till EA gets it right ( might be 20 years from now, might be on M13, might be never ) I'm more in favor of taking matters into my own hands to get the realistic results that EA is robbing us of and even though I'm getting those realistic results in a unrealistic way. I just imagine playing someone good with a team like the Saints or NE and playing the game in a sim matter just doing the blitzes that EA has to offer or trying to run a Tampa 2 base scheme with a team with a great pass rush like the Giants, you would get ate alive which would be unsim like results. If EA gave / gives us a solid game from the roots on up, there wouldn't be no such thing as freestyle or sim to begin with, we would all be one.

Sorry to say that even taking matters into your own hands is the reason why the community is so divided now. People are tired of no look pass catches, and blind swats and picks. It's very unsettling seeing safeties being brought up the LOS to stop the run and cab make champ Bailey type coverage on pass plays all over the field while doing all this pre snap.

Watchng how Slots and Corner routes get abused daily but you can also play perfect defense the entire game from one play out of the same formation. Labbing is nothing but a way to figure out the AI, if practice mode was dynamic with plays not resulting the sameway no matter what, the community would be in better shape than it is now.

Football and all sports are built on "skill" and "hope", nothing should be guaranteed or promised and that's what makes sports and gaming so fun and appealing. Freestyle takes all that away.

[Errors Occurred]

I don't believe there is a sim way to play the game...If the Jets run the ball and get 10-15 yards with it they are going to keep going to that same play until the D can stop it...Every team is like this ...go with what works until the other team can stop you from doing it..I've played with so called sim people that say you can't run the same play 2 times but yet every team in real life does this or user catch the ball I mean come on sometimes the word sim is taking to far.

[CRMosier_LM]

Quote: Originally Posted by Errors Occurred

I don't believe there is a sim way to play the game...If the Jets run the ball and get 10-15 yards with it they are going to keep going to that same play until the D can stop it...Every team is like this ...go with what works until the other team can stop you from doing it..I've played with so called sim people that say you can't run the same play 2 times but yet every team in real life does this or user catch the ball I mean come on sometimes the word sim is taking to far.

Agreed! To me "Sim" playcalling is simply playing matchup defense. Many people call foul if the offense runs the same play a few times but those same people run the same garbage defense the whole game. You come out in I form... They come out in 46. You run shotgun trips....they come out in 46. Now that my friends is basically not SIM.

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[TheNumber35]

Quote: Originally Posted by Errors Occurred

I don't believe there is a sim way to play the game...If the Jets run the ball and get 10-15 yards with it they are going to keep going to that same play until the D can stop it...Every team is like this ...go with what works until the other team can stop you from doing it..I've played with so called sim people that say you can't run the same play 2 times but yet every team in real life does this or user catch the ball I mean come on sometimes the word sim is taking to far.

To respond to that, I defer back to a post that may have been lost in the fray by KB. A post that I 100% agree with and I think it really addresses this whole "sim" conversation better than anything I could articulate this morning lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

And the mindset I disagree with is "I can counter it, so it's okay." For one, the "counter" should come from EA in the form of balancing the game. Even if you look at it just from an general competitive gaming standpoint, if there's something that's overpowered - it should be balanced. If slants work too well due to defensive AI being lacking, it should be patched. Not left to community to do this, this, and this to fix EA's gimped player AI. If "balance" was just the community finding counters, why do companies patch gameplay at all? So even from just that aspect, EA should be doing the work, not the community. Then considering we're doing something that has a real life basis, that should be a factor as well. It would be like if every QB could throw 75 yards, no matter what. There's a counter for it (play deep safeties, shade over the top, increase pass rush, etc), but that doesn't make it correct. What's missed is that the NFL IS "freestyle" in the sense that there are no play call rules, etc. However, the laws of physics still work. Players still think in football terms and see with football eyes, etc. I think making the game more realistic would allow BOTH "Freestyle" and "Sim" players to go to work. Right now, the "Sim" players feel like they are getting screwed because "Freestyle" players can do stuff that has no real basis in real life, real physics, or shows the player thinking with a real football mind, regardless if you and sgibs happen to do it or not. There's some video around here where a WR ran all over the place and still got back to catch the ball. That's what a "Freestyle" player would do, a "Sim" player is like "why does that even work?" Basically, there would be no such thing as either if the game was realistic. It would all be "Sim" and it will just be different philosophies, personnel preferences, and execution abilities. "Freestyle" might run more unorthodox plays and would be like Spurrier trying to bring college plays to the NFL or the way Denver came up with their Tebow offense, or the Wildcat when it first came, etc, but still it would all work within football principles. Your jab at speaking in football doesn't make sense. Madden should be working in these terms even if Joe Fan wouldn't know the difference between Will and Sam or that a NT is different than a DT. That's football, and while I'm not saying you should have to be Bill Walsh or Dick LeBeau to play the game, you should be able to see something they like and put it in the game and have it work as it should based on how it fits your personnel, not if the AI "happens to figure it out" or not or "do I have time to make 6 different adjustments before the offense snaps it?" or such. The only reason this argument really exists, imo, is that the game is flawed in too many basic levels and is too limited in creativity and tactical football thinking behind the scenes at the programming level. Things like tiered play calling would enhance ALL player's ability to be creative and adapt. Instead, we have to "counter" DBs having to run routes before the WR to cover them, or "user blitzing" a LB being completely ignored by the OL, even if I came right up the A-Gap and could have tapped the Center on the butt as I went back to kill his QB. Just my view on the whole "sim" or not thing.