What is SIM Play Calling?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

The more I give this topic thought, the stronger I feel about Madden 14 needing to overhaul plays and play calling. The playbooks, similar to the games in Franchise mode, have been far too isolated from each other for far too long. We all know how PA passes seem to have no requirement for establishing a commitment to run the ball first or that screen passes aren't actually designed so much to slow down an aggressive pass rush. However, even misdirection plays, like counter runs, can be run over and over again, successfully. In the NFL, play calling is another level of the "chess match" often using plays to get a feel for how your opponent will react to certain things so they can be "setup" as well as feeling them out for various strengths and weaknesses. In Madden, aside from looking at the opposing teams personnel to assess which players have low SPD ratings, there is very little true NFL strategic play calling depth, necessary to win. This is why I hope on June 4th the reveal an on field AI that actually plays football, so that plays and play calling inherently have more NFL realistic risk/reward.

Addressing this issue would definitely be monumental, blur the lines of reality & change the way we play Madden.

I think this stuff was on my last wishlist or 2. Down & distance & prior success on plays should definitely have an effect on draws, screens & play action. Prior routes setting up double moves. This stuff has to make it into Madden at some point. We can't play football without it.

[baller7345]

Ok I'll try to keep this simple and fairly short (hopefully).

Sim playing calling is just as much about how the plays are executed as it is about avoiding certain exploits. I don't care how many plays a person runs if they are executing those concepts (preferably something that is an actual passing concept and not something that Madden lets you create that only works consistently on the virtual field) then you can run them as much as you want. If you run a Mtn Zone Weak with Mtn Power as you entire running game and it works and I don't stop it then more power too you. But when someone begins to run something like HB dive out of Strong Close (already a formation that for some reason is always harder to stop than it should be when compared to other power formations) and part of how you execute that play involves motion a WR into the A gap to give you an extra blocker you begin to blur the line between sim play calling and nonsim play calling.

You should be able to execute your offense within the realm of realistic football parameters. You don't see teams looking for motion quick hikes to use as man beaters, instead they stick with proven passing concepts or customizations of such concepts. Some of those like Drive, shallow cross, etc. can implement a "motion snap" of sorts, but you'll never see the results that you get from motion snapping a C route or the flat route out of Y-Trail from Strong Close (the FB) where against certain coverages the speed boost you get from the motion (the C route) or the simple fact that madden coverage ignores the motion (Y-Trail motion snap).

You can use motion you can even use motion at the snap but its execution has to follow through with a realistic result and it has to also be a true to life football concept.

So much for keeping it short. If I didn't address something that you think I should have its probably because its already been talked about by someone else on this thread.

[ZFarls]

As someone who sits in a room 15 hours a day with SGibs, you guys have absolutely influenced his mindset and we enjoying talking about this stuff alot.

At community events, we sit with guys from TSO (Sim Sherrif) and The Sim Standard and have the same debates and they are great. OS is known as a great sim community so we enjoy sharing our thoughts on "freestyle or tourney". (We don't go for it on 4th and 25 from our own 1 and don't drop back 25 yards)

We just don't like being called out when people who don't know how we play in the first place or claim that we glitch, cheese etc. People think when Madden becomes "real" (its a video game?), they will instantly be good since they know tons about football and can say "3 Technique" at dinner parties.

We prefer the game to play as real as possible and enjoy breaking down gameplay and getting rid of all the annoying online tactics. I have been good since 04 through different motions, catches, plays etc and plan on being good soley because I play alot (in practice mode too)

I like the example above on Madden 08 - 3 man rush and I would add shake blitz to that, once its removed, you aren't better than before. We dont use shake for that exact reason.

We try and teach counters so people who want to play can have fun and improve. Its more the "I could counter it with 2 adjustments, but I'll make a rule instead and call it not sim" type mindset I disagree with.

Good stuff, thanks for conversing!

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZFarls

As someone who sits in a room 15 hours a day with SGibs, you guys have absolutely influenced his mindset and we enjoying talking about this stuff alot. At community events, we sit with guys from TSO (Sim Sherrif) and The Sim Standard and have the same debates and they are great. OS is known as a great sim community so we enjoy sharing our thoughts on "freestyle or tourney". (We don't go for it on 4th and 25 from our own 1 and don't drop back 25 yards) We just don't like being called out when people who don't know how we play in the first place or claim that we glitch, cheese etc. People think when Madden becomes "real" (its a video game?), they will instantly be good since they know tons about football and can say "3 Technique" at dinner parties. We prefer the game to play as real as possible and enjoy breaking down gameplay and getting rid of all the annoying online tactics. I have been good since 04 through different motions, catches, plays etc and plan on being good soley because I play alot (in practice mode too) I like the example above on Madden 08 - 3 man rush and I would add shake blitz to that, once its removed, you aren't better than before. We dont use shake for that exact reason. We try and teach counters so people who want to play can have fun and improve. Its more the "I could counter it with 2 adjustments, but I'll make a rule instead and call it not sim" type mindset I disagree with. Good stuff, thanks for conversing!

Just so I understand you fully, it doesn't matter what the 2 counters are or if they reasonably adhere to realistic football principles, as long as there is a counter(s), they shouldn't be regulated?

So IF the best way to stop toss sweeps or outside runs was to use defenses with more DBs because they are faster and can contain better in Madden, that qualifies as a suitable counter, in your opinion?

[PGaither84]

"It's a video game" is the most frustrating, ignorant, and stupid argument I hear people make about Madden and/or to support their position.

I want less of this:




And more of this:




You know what these both have in common? They are both video games. One, by design, is just trying to have fun while the other by design wants to replicate realistic professional football. If you want to play the first one, fine, but I don't.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

You know what these both have in common? They are both video games. One, by design, is just trying to have fun while the other by design wants to replicate realistic professional football.

The fluorescent pink jerseys notwithstanding

Those hurt my eyes, and made the dog bark.

[Aftershock9958]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZFarls

We just don't like being called out when people who don't know how we play in the first place or claim that we glitch, cheese etc. People think when Madden becomes "real" (its a video game?), they will instantly be good since they know tons about football and can say "3 Technique" at dinner parties. We prefer the game to play as real as possible and enjoy breaking down gameplay and getting rid of all the annoying online tactics. I have been good since 04 through different motions, catches, plays etc and plan on being good soley because I play alot (in practice mode too) I like the example above on Madden 08 - 3 man rush and I would add shake blitz to that, once its removed, you aren't better than before. We dont use shake for that exact reason. We try and teach counters so people who want to play can have fun and improve. Its more the "I could counter it with 2 adjustments, but I'll make a rule instead and call it not sim" type mindset I disagree with. Good stuff, thanks for conversing!

I haven't been too active on this site up until recently, and it's only been a month or so at this point that I've been frequently posting. That being said, I've gotten the distinct impression that SGibs is the one doing the calling out; I never hear anyone call him a cheeser or a glitcher, but on plenty of occasions I've seen him more or less attempt to put the sim community on blast. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how it seems.

As far as being instantly good - no, it wouldn't be like a lightswitch for most people, but it would level the playing field quite a bit. Nano blitzes and motioning and formations that work in ways they're not supposed to greatly hinders a lot of the community in that there are tons of players who are putting football principles to work, and don't understand why they're terrible at the game when what they're doing should work.

Meanwhile most of the unrealistic things that work are products of people who aren't as concerned with the football aspect of it, but instead are sitting around doing their best to see where football doesn't apply to what's happening. And I don't mean you guys - I lean towards thinking you and SGibs and people like yourselves are the ones who realize that something needs to happen to counter that type of thinking.... if you want to compete with them.

At the point where Madden or any football game reflects profession football the way it should, there will be a lot of glitchers and cheesers who suddenly suck because they don't understand football principles, and there will be lots of straight forward casual players who step their game up because they do understand football principles.

They may not reach my level, because I use practice mode. And at the same time, I may not reach your level because you most likely use practice mode a hell of a lot more than my patience allows. But all the same, a lot of people's game will be improved.

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

"It's a video game" is the most frustrating, ignorant, and stupid argument I hear people make about Madden and/or to support their position.

At the risk of sounding like Mother Theresa, is it really necessary to call anyone's argument frustrating and stupid? I think comments like this are part of the reason why the OS community is viewed negatively in some circles. Gee whiz!