What is SIM Play Calling?

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by WFColonel56

I think its a stupid argument when people say it to say that the game of madden shouldnt advance because it is just a game. BUT I think it is a valid statement when people say "Give em a break...its a game" meaning that no matter how pure their intentions are to make a simulation that there is only so much that the programming can do as of today. Or there is only so much that the developers know how to do at this time Like everything in life that one statement is not black and white..It depends on the context

I agree... and in the context of what MOST of us are asking for, it has ALREADY BEEN DONE BEFORE sometimes even by older versions Madden itself, and on the PS2/Original Xbox no less. We are not asking for too much... at least I don't think we are.

I linked to NBA2k12 before, but here was 2k10:



While there is dead air, the overall presentation is very smooth and has a ton of atmosphere.

[TajDeni]

i tend to disagree that the way the Colts offense under P.Manning worked translates into the game as sim playcalling.

now i will need alil help from a Cots fan on 1 thing because its been awhile since weve seen Peyton play. Do the Colts even huddle?

regardless, Peytons offense doesnt translate because we do not have the same range of control over the offense in the game the way P.Manning does. Basically on every given play based on the personnel on the field, Peyton has access and the freedom to call every play within the playbook within a particular formation or personnel grouping.

so basically Peyton wants to run very little formations, because in essense he doesnt want the defense moving all over the place, movement just makes things harder for him. so by staying n the same formation, he has basically dictated the terms on which the defense can operate. this makes the defense more or less have to play vanilla in its aignment. Now through this manipulation he can make his reads with greater accuracy.

So I disagree that teams know what play(s) are coming and simply cannot stop it, tho it may appear that way on tv, because i dont believe that Peyton even is 100% sure about what play is coming next. he figures it all out on the fly.

there is a reason he is the only player in the NFL that runs this type of offense 100%, he is the operating system of the computer, theres no need for an IT guy, he'akin to a self-realised computer. he can fix his own issues.

He calls a play that he has in his mind based on what he's observed so far throughout the game, then walks to the line, determines if the play he's called would work and if it wouldnt work accesses why exactly it wouldnt work, then once he's understood why a given play wouldnt work its a logical step to know what play would work or what fixes need to b made to make said play work, provided you knew the playbook like the back of your hand.

so its not simply changing the play, its understanding that this play would work if that safety wasnt there, so ill change this 1 wr to run this route that will manipulate the defense on the terms i want.

basically im of the opinion that it would be ok to run a 1 formation 15 play playbook if the user had access to every single play in the playbook on every given snap at the LOS, then if you throw in the ability to change any given route, motioning players, then what you really have is an infinite playbook only limited by the understanding of the person operating it. and thats just 1 formation. now imagine you have 5 formations with 10 plays in each and had acesses to every single play at all times, then you'd be on Payton Mannings level.

and obviously we dont have that range of control over the offense currently in madden, tho im patiently waiting for the day.

so while this article is cool, i dont think based on the current limitation we are given that Peyton's offense can be used as a example of sim playcalling in a video game.

what Peyton Manning does is pure genius, please dont attempt to trivalize it, because you found a few plays that work at an above average rate.

just my 2cents,

ps. i played in an offense (WR) in college where the QB had the freedom to change any play at the LOS to a better play. Only limitation that it had to be within the current formation and he was not allowed to change routes, then add to the fact that every wrs route had mulitple options based on coverage (man,2,3,). and you can understand where i get my analysis from. and we were a pro offense. I-Form and Ace's Normal and Y-Trips on 3rd down

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

I agree... and in the context of what MOST of us are asking for, it has ALREADY BEEN DONE BEFORE sometimes even by older versions Madden itself, and on the PS2/Original Xbox no less. We are not asking for too much... at least I don't think we are. I linked to NBA2k12 before, but here was 2k10: While there is dead air, the overall presentation is very smooth and has a ton of atmosphere.

Nice, I don't even really follow/a fan of NBA but that was nice. Loved the crowd getting into it - almost felt like I was watching an NBA game.

I liked how the players moved too - look like they were running plays or aware of the court.

[PGaither84]

I don't really follow the NBA either, but I picked up 2k10 on a whim after Madden 11 CD two years ago and after playing it, I had to get 2k11 with Jordan on the cover. I don't have 12, but I play 11 off and on. I use the Sacramento Kings, and while I am no good at the game the presentation and game play suck me in.

I pay so little attention to basket ball that I didn't know the playoffs had even started yet until I heard the Lakers lost in the second round. HA! 2k makes that good of a game!

[DaBear23]

i have a question for the people who think the slant route is over powered.

the only route that works in madden is the slant route. the curl route works most of the time against man coverage. if the slant route is basically useless like the rest of the route in the game, what kind of play are you going to run against some that pick the raiders and play man coverage all day.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

i have a question for the people who think the slant route is over powered. the only route that works in madden is the slant route. the curl route works most of the time against man coverage. if the slant route is basically useless like the rest of the route in the game, what kind of play are you going to run against some that pick the raiders and play man coverage all day.

Run the ball out of a 4-WR/Spread formation.

If they are playing man all day, you should be able to spread them out while making them put a lot of DBs on the field. The should be an advantage for you to run (especially draw plays).

Then if they start run blitzing, I'd start calling slants (while bluffing the run...can you still bluff plays?) Then with the backers blitzing, you'll find room for the slant.

If for some reason they are staying base, either the FS/SS will be on the slot WR or the LBs (heh). You probably could audible to "Quick Pass" and get the slants and someone might be open. Especially if you're running a trips bunch. Could get a rub to get a step, especially vs LBs.

Raiders have meh DBs, iirc (assuming they are rated like real life ability). Probably fast and....that's it. bad AWR (except Routt maybe) and I think Routt's the best MCV, so I'm shocked that all routes wouldn't have a shot against those DBs.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

i have a question for the people who think the slant route is over powered. the only route that works in madden is the slant route. the curl route works most of the time against man coverage. if the slant route is basically useless like the rest of the route in the game, what kind of play are you going to run against some that pick the raiders and play man coverage all day.

The bolded words are what I have an issue with in your post. For once in the last 10 years every single route in the game works. Deep comebacks, corner routes, the C routes, dig routes, drags, slants, speed outs, quick ins, short hitches, curls, whip routes, sail routes, posts, etc. all work.

Now its true that slants are the most effective route against man but with a good route running WR you can burn man coverage using deep outs, dig routes, whip routes, and many others. Concepts like mesh and shallow cross are designed to put a lot of stress on man coverage (as well as zone) as is something simple like Z-Spot from a bunch formation. The spot route is pretty hard to cover in man coverage as long as you have the timing down.

With routes like the Corner in Z-Spot or the deep corner routes (c routes) in the Corner strike plays you can actually throw your WR open if you have a decent QB. You can do it with less than adequate QB's (did it for 2 years with a below average Kolb in online franchises) but its obviously going to be less consistent but you'll usually just throw that route out of bounds instead of throwing a pick since it is an out breaking route.

One of my favorite things to do with Green Bay (my favorite team and thus the team I play the most with) when I go up against someone who plays a ton of man coverage is to first soften them up by running a lot of short quick hitting passing concepts such as slants (its not like any sim player would ban them), shallow cross, Drive, Mesh, Z-Spot, and spacing (preferably if you catch them in zone after all the short middle passes). This forces them to abandon the 2 deep safety look to play some sort of robber coverage if they want to stay in man coverage which lets me open up the offense and go for the kill. Once I notice them in either cover 0 or cover 1 on multiple occasions I'll try to isolate either Jennings or Nelson with one of GB's trips formations or their Gun Bunch formation and run a play that has one of those deep corner routes (the c routes). If I have decent protection I can make a throw with Rodgers that will be just about impossible for the defense to get too and normally if they go for the pick they'll miss leading too a big play for the offense. They are forced to take the conservative play and attempt to swat the ball or knock it loose after I go for the catch and while this seems really easy way to slow it down or stop it many people try and go for the pick and are often found trying to run down Jennings and Nelson as they break up field.

If they start laying back and not going for the pick then you can start throwing in deep comebacks and rarely have to risk throwing a pick. You can do similar things using deep outs out of passing concepts like Strong Flood as you throw a bullet down and towards the sideline allowing you to come back for the ball near the sideline while making it almost impossible for it to be picked off by a defender in man coverage as long as WR is a decent route runner.

[KOTC Wayne]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Just so I understand you fully, it doesn't matter what the 2 counters are or if they reasonably adhere to realistic football principles, as long as there is a counter(s), they shouldn't be regulated? So IF the best way to stop toss sweeps or outside runs was to use defenses with more DBs because they are faster and can contain better in Madden, that qualifies as a suitable counter, in your opinion?

So I guess since using a defense with DB's that could contain the toss sweeps and outside runs would be deemed un-sim, guess the next best thing to do is either regulate how many times someone can use those two runs our ban it all together? Now, I agree that using a defense with more DB's to stop a certain run is ridiculous but......... I also feel telling someone how many times they can do something or taking it away all together is just as ridiculous..... so where can a happy medium be reached on that example?