why is sim a curse word in this game??

[brahmagoul]

I think the first step to make Madden a real sim and truly great experience is to make it fun to make that first guy miss. With that mindset, a 2-yard gain can be a rewarding experience. Perhaps deep-throw accuracy needs to be toned down, too. Perhaps logic is a better term to use, although I admit I'm not a computer programmer.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by brahmagoul

I think the first step to make Madden a real sim and truly great experience is to make it fun to make that first guy miss. With that mindset, a 2-yard gain can be a rewarding experience. Perhaps deep-throw accuracy needs to be toned down, too. Perhaps logic is a better term to use, although I admit I'm not a computer programmer.

Totally agreed! And it should be tied to ratings, with as close to perfect user input as possible to make it happen. I remember when I was younger reading an article with Jerry Rice about him working out running the hills, etc. He made the statement that his position is about the extra few inches between success and failure. I have no problem with the game making me earn that miss with a perfectly timed feint. Now after I accomplish this, I should get rewarded with space to work, not an artificial speed boost from the defender. There is just so much that is "band-aided" with Madden. No player weight, so no real cut back lanes. No proper pursuit angles, so speed boost to keep the defenders close and make it look legit. I hate having a scat back and having a DT match his quickness at changing directions. The best Barry Sanders runs were when he planted and the entire defensive front kept pursuing his original direction as he cut back against the grain. Madden doesn't really have these moments, because they have no player momentum.

I also look forward to the day that a top flight kick returner means something because of his ability to use the oncoming players momentum against him. Right now Madden isn't about stick skills based on timing, it's about knowing how to game the game's poor control against the poor player locomotion. Hopefully all things player control and locomotion will become huge priorities. Time will tell......

[raiders81tim]

Simple answer is not everyone finds playing sim fun. Some people want to onside every time, or got for every fourth down, or even use money plays. It's there $60 let em play how they want.

I just want a sim ranked lobby so I don't have to deal with them online.

[scoonie05]

^^^^ best comment in this thread

[T-Moar]

I'm going to assume by "sim" you mean "true to life." Since I'm sick and tired of being called a cheeser for running a true-to-life 90's style Run N' Shoot + 46 (specifically in the model of the '93 Oilers), I feel the need to rebut several of your "sim" criteria.

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

1. Play variety

Lack of play variety isn't necessarily unrealistic. Several offensive and defensive systems have been run successfully using a limited number of plays run in different ways. The limited number of plays is exactly what made the Run N' Shoot work, back in the 90's. If you need a more recent example, Smart Football describes another successful NFL offense that did something similar, with decent results: http://smartfootball.com/offense/pey...-colts-offense

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2. Realistic play calling(plays that fit the down and distance)

This means different things to different people, though. For example, if I'm in a 2nd & inches situation, I usually call some sort of deep pass, because it's a low-risk play in that scenario. You, on the other hand, might consider an inside run superior in that scenario. Either one would be realistic. The reason that NFL coaches call those plays in those scenarios is because it has been known to work. If it's 3rd and inches and your opponent burns you on a deep pass, that's on you. Who are you to limit HIS playbook?

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3. no 15 hot routes at the line of scrimmage

This is absolutely realistic. Almost every QB in the league does this, from Peyton Manning to Kyle Orton. Entire NFL systems have been developed out of this. See my first point.

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4. no excessive blitzing, no one should blitz all game

I agree, they shouldn't blitz all game, because that's bad playcalling and they should be getting burned. There shouldn't be a rule that says they can't. Would you tell Buddy Ryan or Dick LeBeau that they couldn't coach against you in real life?

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5. no actions that PURPOSELY manipulate the a.i. if you are going to beat me, then beat me not the a.i.

Agreed. To me, this is the definition of sim play.

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6. no you tube passing schemes its not realistic to know a play will work before you snap the ball

IMO, this falls under #5.

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7. no huddle all game, sprinkled in thats fine

See: K-gun. It's a viable strategy, IMO. I would never do it that often, because it tires out the Offense insanely fast, but if you have the kind of offensive depth that can pull a constant no-huddle off, more power to you, IMO. Especially since that's the only way to win with certain teams.

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8. punt on 4th down, now 4th and inches, your call, have no problem with someone going for a 4th down or two if it makes football sense(dont use belichick) has your selling point lol

IMO, as a football head, if someone chooses to go for it on 4th, it is your job to stop them. I see statistics all over the place that say that NFL coaches should be going for 4th down more than they are. Why shouldn't I heed that advice in Madden?

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9. respect your opponent, if you are winning late in the game by a large margin, why pour it on, win your game and move on.

I know as many people that explicitly disagree with this as agree with it. There are several players that I've played with in the past that will actually take offense if you choose to drain the clock in the last minutes. Personally, I agree that it should be done, from a strategy standpoint, but it shouldn't be a rule. I play exclusively with the Texans. Back in Madden 08/09, do you have any idea how difficult it was to run out the clock with Ahman Green? That would have been a pipe dream. As a result, I often found myself passing in late-game situations, even though I was ahead, simply because I didn't trust my RB. Why risk allowing a comeback?

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10. have fun!!!

Agreed. Ultimately, I guess it's whatever makes you happy. It's your game, do what you want with it. Anyway, that's my $0.02. Basically, it boils down to this: If it would work in real life, and if it's been tried in real life with some success, feel free to use it against me. If it's an AI exploit, don't.

[shaunlmason]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

Taz and I were doing the PM thing, but I think this needs to be shared in a larger forum for discussion. So, I buy Madden 12 for 20 bucks to be relevant and not speaking from Madden 10. I actually am having fun with it, but here's the problem. Every day I play Fifa 12. Been playing it since 08, to the level that guys like CM Mosier and ShopMaster play Madden. About 3,500 games, total. Ever since I started playing, it's been on Pro Cam. This view closely mirrors Madden, except from more of a field level. So when I compare the two, it's pretty much apples to apples. To my point, Madden doesn't have anywhere near the control or fluidity of Fifa. Choppy animations, straight out unrealisitc player movement. When I said that Madden really needs to focus movment and interaction, it wasn't said lightly. For all of the improvement that Infinity Engine brings, it's still the cart before the horse. Fifa got player movement down in '11, player impact engine in '12. Madden team really needs to study Fifa's player movement. When you hit the left stick left, the guy steps left, with weight. The game mechanics of Fifa could translate very nicely to Madden. RS for skill moves, shaped like Fifa's ball skills. The restrictions on turning while at speed, etc. I know not everyone will feel me. But, if you have Fifa, go into Pro Cam and see what I'm talking about. It is what Madden has been missing. Proper movement is the difference between NBA Jam and NBA Live '10, a title which I thought was another great example of proper player movement and weight..... IMO, Madden is closer to the former, trying too hard to be "fun" and not keeping it real. Want a sim, make it move like one....

I love FIFA, and I agree that the way players move and interact is much better in FIFA than any football game (period) to date.

That said, FIFA still has some wonkiness on occasion too.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Several offensive and defensive systems have been run successfully using a limited number of plays run in different ways.

To me, this is still play variety. If you run the same overall play from different looks - it's still changing things up. It's not calling the same play from the same formation/package/etc.

"Specifically, how Manning and the Colts — for thirteen years — ran the same tiny little cluster of plays, from the same tiny little cluster of formations, with the most consistent personnel in the league, and brutalized NFL defenses year-in and year-out. "

Again, still play variety. A cluster implies multiple. You don't have to call from the front and the back and everything in between to have a varied offense.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

For example, if I'm in a 2nd & inches situation, I usually call some sort of deep pass, because it's a low-risk play in that scenario. You, on the other hand, might consider an inside run superior in that scenario. Either one would be realistic.

Completely agree here. Heck, didn't Madden comment in one of the older Maddens when you were in 2nd & short that you could, basically, take a chance or just pick up the first down?

In fact, if you did one or the other too consistently, you might become too predictable and get stopped on both 2nd and 3rd down.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

This is absolutely realistic. Almost every QB in the league does this, from Peyton Manning to Kyle Orton. Entire NFL systems have been developed out of this.

Peyton does more adjustments (and fake adjustments) at the line than just about any other QB. I also think there should be some sort of risk involved with false starts/confusion based on the AWR of the players. The Colts' O-Line is praised for being able to stay in their stances and composed while Peyton does his thing. Every QB, OL, offense in general in the game shouldn't be able to handle it equally well as seems to be the case in Madden. If I have a OL with 55 as my highest AWR and a rookie 60 AWR QB - I shouldn't be able to pull off replicating Peyton Manning.

On the other hand, if I have a 90+ AWR OL and QB - there should be a marked difference - and there doesn't seem to be. That's a problem, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Would you tell Buddy Ryan or Dick LeBeau that they couldn't coach against you in real life?

The problem is that they aren't coaching against lineman with the craptastic AI that Madden has. Granted, EA should fix it, but until they do...there might have to be a necessary balance because the way the OL plays is NOT realistic in this game.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

IMO, as a football head, if someone chooses to go for it on 4th, it is your job to stop them. I see statistics all over the place that say that NFL coaches should be going for 4th down more than they are. Why shouldn't I heed that advice in Madden?

More often is how often? If it's 15% in the NFL, more often might be 35%, not necessarily 100%.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

I know as many people that explicitly disagree with this as agree with it. There are several players that I've played with in the past that will actually take offense if you choose to drain the clock in the last minutes. Personally, I agree that it should be done, from a strategy standpoint, but it shouldn't be a rule. I play exclusively with the Texans. Back in Madden 08/09, do you have any idea how difficult it was to run out the clock with Ahman Green? That would have been a pipe dream. As a result, I often found myself passing in late-game situations, even though I was ahead, simply because I didn't trust my RB. Why risk allowing a comeback?

True - if you have a west coast team but iffy run game, a short pass/screen attack could eat the clock. A team should do what they can do best to close out the game. You can never have too many points, and if I can't stop them...

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Basically, it boils down to this: If it would work in real life, and if it's been tried in real life with some success, feel free to use it against me. If it's an AI exploit, don't.

But there's the rub.

Some things that work and exist in real life amount to AI...if not exploit in the classic sense, the AI is not able to deal with it as well as it needs to, and certainly not as well as players in real life. If I User blitz a LB "who's not supposed to blitz" (i.e. the play has him in man/zone/spy/contain), the OL often ignore him.

In real life, there's no such thing as "not supposed to blitz". Yet in Madden, there is.

[T-Moar]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

To me, this is still play variety. If you run the same overall play from different looks - it's still changing things up. It's not calling the same play from the same formation/package/etc. "Specifically, how Manning and the Colts — for thirteen years — ran the same tiny little cluster of plays, from the same tiny little cluster of formations, with the most consistent personnel in the league, and brutalized NFL defenses year-in and year-out. " Again, still play variety. A cluster implies multiple. You don't have to call from the front and the back and everything in between to have a varied offense.

That's your view of it. When I hear play variety, I tend to think "you can't call the same play twice," and to me, that over-complicates the game. True, someone shouldn't be able to call the same play over and over, but at the same time, insofar as they're not exploiting AI, you should be able to figure out how to stop it.

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Peyton does more adjustments (and fake adjustments) at the line than just about any other QB. I also think there should be some sort of risk involved with false starts/confusion based on the AWR of the players. The Colts' O-Line is praised for being able to stay in their stances and composed while Peyton does his thing. Every QB, OL, offense in general in the game shouldn't be able to handle it equally well as seems to be the case in Madden. If I have a OL with 55 as my highest AWR and a rookie 60 AWR QB - I shouldn't be able to pull off replicating Peyton Manning. On the other hand, if I have a 90+ AWR OL and QB - there should be a marked difference - and there doesn't seem to be. That's a problem, imo.

While I agree that Peyton Manning does call an extraordinary number of audibles, the audible is still a tool in the repertoire of pretty much every QB in the league, outside of maybe TJ Yates and Alex Smith. And while I agree with you about making AWR matter for audibles, I'm not exactly sure how it should be done.

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The problem is that they aren't coaching against lineman with the craptastic AI that Madden has. Granted, EA should fix it, but until they do...there might have to be a necessary balance because the way the OL plays is NOT realistic in this game.

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More often is how often? If it's 15% in the NFL, more often might be 35%, not necessarily 100%.

I've seen 100% thrown around a bit, but in general, the advice is something like going for anything within 5 yards, regardless of field position - basically, exactly the "Bill Belichick" model that the OP was talking about.

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But there's the rub. Some things that work and exist in real life amount to AI...if not exploit in the classic sense, the AI is not able to deal with it as well as it needs to, and certainly not as well as players in real life. If I User blitz a LB "who's not supposed to blitz" (i.e. the play has him in man/zone/spy/contain), the OL often ignore him. In real life, there's no such thing as "not supposed to blitz". Yet in Madden, there is.

In my book, I consider that an AI exploit. I can see what you mean about it being a grey area, though. Also, since I have javascript disabled and can't actually click the "like" button, I feel the need to let you know that I like your post. It is the kind of constructive conversation that this board needs more of.

Also, on a tangential note, I have a problem with FIFA being touted as the model for sim Madden to follow. In the Madden world, "sim" is defined by most as strategy-based gameplay designed to reflect real life. FIFA, on the other hand, is sorely lacking in the strategy department, and entirely based on stick skills. The best FIFA player I know doesn't even use tactics. At all. I see what's being said about the animations, but at the same time, physics is not all that's needed to make a sports game. I'd rather play something strategy-heavy like Football Manager or -gulp- Madden than something like FIFA any day.