The more videos I watch, the less I seem to see the impact of the Infinity engine

[roadman]

Big;

This is what they are fixing game play wise for NCAA. That patch comes out late August.

Hopefully, Madden catches this stuff.

They are fixing my #1 beef with the state of the game it's in, zone coverage.

Gameplay

Zone Defense has been updated.
We improved receiver leverage logic as well as predicting when a receiver will be in or out of their zone.
Improved Deep Half Zone decision making about when to split between uncovered receivers. Also, allow more zone overlapping in deep half to cover more area.
Deep half defenders were dropping too close to the sideline or dropping outside when no receiver was outside of their position.
No-Huddle QB Spy bug fixed. Defenders will no longer go into spy assignments while in man coverage.
Receivers weren’t looking for hot-read passes.
CPU QBs passing during the drop would get set passes instead of on-the-run inaccurate passes.
Change the logic of man defenders so they don't run into the backfield and past the receiver they are covering.
Route running near sideline was causing issues especially on comeback routes.
Fixed players not respecting global show blitz/press/back off coverage after handing off a receiver.
Fixed sideline streak routes so they don't get clamped in a way that the route would end after 10 or 15 yards.
Drive summaries should now reset after each scoring drive.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM

I'm not even going to get into this one.... all I'm going to say is some people expect to call a play with a 4-man rush vs 6 blockers and get massive pressure on a consistent basis. It doesnt happen in the NFL on a regular basis. when I provided over 800k games online worth of data and there was only 1 DT in the top 10 in sacks and 3 in the top 25... what do you want me to do? Lets change the game so that the folks that want insta pressure from a 4 man rush can be happy. We want realism...

Instant?

Sheez.

Who said anything about "instant" or "massive" pressure?

But, yeah, if I have two explosive, dynamic ends, why the heck should they NOT get pressure more times than not? Doesn't mean they'll get SACKS more times than not, but make the QB uncomfortable, or put that "6th man" on protection to chip one DE while the QB has to have eyes for the other and hopefully a good enough T to give him time.

4 vs 6 works because it's flanking. Just like in a war. Flanking gives an advantage, dividing forces and lowering the amount of resistance to your attack and the DL vs OL on pass plays is exactly that, a defensive line siege attack on the QB.

So, yeah, if all 4 DL were trying to come inside on 5-6 man protections, yes, that would likely lose a lot - which is why they don't do it. The DEs flank the OL, leaving the resistance to them just the Ts and any help in the backfield. This flanking move also surrounds the QB, cutting off escape paths, ideally. Then if the ends are dynamic, they can work their way into the pocket and harass the QB.

This flanking move - the arc - also takes the C/Gs out of response position. Being 4-5 yds deep in the backfield, the DEs can't get stopped by the C/G - who also have deal with the DTs since they have the direct line to the QB. While flanking reduces resistance, it does cost time, time that the QB can use to read the play/pressure, and get the ball out.

That's why a DYNAMIC four can beat six. No, we don't want a bunch of average or worse suckers to beat their men constantly (but I do want them to at least make the arc and try to play like DEs are supposed to). But if I build my team to where I have JPP and Jared Allen as ends, you can bet I want to see them win more than they lose, even WITH help since a HB/FB/TE aren't usually the best pass blockers around (which is when one is, it's notable and valuable to teams).

This doesn't even get into the 3-4 because there's even more screwed up with that what with the inability to have, say, Ngata and Justin Smith free up my OLBs for rushing the passer by forcing double teams. Plus no ability to confuse the protections with who the 4th rusher is, bringing 4th from various LBs positions and angles does nothing, etc.

Not to mention other defensive deceptions like zone blitzing (because of psychic "we know who is supposed to come" nonsense) which in Madden are just putting a fat player in zone coverage without the benefit of the confusion it should cause - with OL AWR and communication (which can be represented by AWR and PRC) determining how well they decipher it.

In my franchise, I have two high SPD, high ACC, high BSH, high PMV/FMV DEs. These guys should be exploding up the field, pressuring the tackles with a variety of moves and hand-fighting, punches to disrupt the T's foundation, and playing off leverage. They should be very difficult to block, win these one on ones a lot, and really force the hand of the OL.

Instead I get:

-The Ts don't even try to block so they are free runners. Wrong
-The Ts barely get their hands on them, not even really fighting desperately to keep the QB alive. Wrong
-There's no significant arc, they don't get deep as the QB is dropping or attempt to engage at the shortest path to the QB (after the arc, not at the LOS). Wrong
-If I use a 3-man front with them (say 3-3-5 Normal), they don't force double teams. My OLBs get picked up by Guards. Wrong
-HB/FB can pick my ends up without much problem. No real determination to fight off their attempted engagement. Wrong
-The only engagement is when the DE fails and the OT fails to "patty cake" them and then that engagement isn't even fierce. Wrong

We do want a realistic game, which means getting this kind of thing RIGHT with the right mentality and focus on both lines.

[hay99077]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Instant? Sheez. Who said anything about "instant" or "massive" pressure? But, yeah, if I have two explosive, dynamic ends, why the heck should they NOT get pressure more times than not? Doesn't mean they'll get SACKS more times than not, but make the QB uncomfortable, or put that "6th man" on protection to chip one DE while the QB has to have eyes for the other and hopefully a good enough T to give him time. 4 vs 6 works because it's flanking. Just like in a war. Flanking gives an advantage, dividing forces and lowering the amount of resistance to your attack and the DL vs OL on pass plays is exactly that, a defensive line siege attack on the QB. So, yeah, if all 4 DL were trying to come inside on 5-6 man protections, yes, that would likely lose a lot - which is why they don't do it. The DEs flank the OL, leaving the resistance to them just the Ts and any help in the backfield. This flanking move also surrounds the QB, cutting off escape paths, ideally. Then if the ends are dynamic, they can work their way into the pocket and harass the QB. This flanking move - the arc - also takes the C/Gs out of response position. Being 4-5 yds deep in the backfield, the DEs can't get stopped by the C/G - who also have deal with the DTs since they have the direct line to the QB. While flanking reduces resistance, it does cost time, time that the QB can use to read the play/pressure, and get the ball out. That's why a DYNAMIC four can beat six. No, we don't want a bunch of average or worse suckers to beat their men constantly (but I do want them to at least make the arc and try to play like DEs are supposed to). But if I build my team to where I have JPP and Jared Allen as ends, you can bet I want to see them win more than they lose, even WITH help since a HB/FB/TE aren't usually the best pass blockers around (which is when one is, it's notable and valuable to teams). This doesn't even get into the 3-4 because there's even more screwed up with that what with the inability to have, say, Ngata and Justin Smith free up my OLBs for rushing the passer by forcing double teams. Plus no ability to confuse the protections with who the 4th rusher is, bringing 4th from various LBs positions and angles does nothing, etc. Not to mention other defensive deceptions like zone blitzing (because of psychic "we know who is supposed to come" nonsense) which in Madden are just putting a fat player in zone coverage without the benefit of the confusion it should cause - with OL AWR and communication (which can be represented by AWR and PRC) determining how well they decipher it.

Looked for a "love" button because like didn't seem to do this post justice...

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by N51_rob

There in lies the problem. It's not about 6 vs 4. It's about elite (and or top end) edge rushers not being nearly as dominant as they should be. Especially those that rush from the offenses left side. Mario Williams, Julius Peppers are less effective rushing from the left than lesser rushers are from the right side of the offense. Madden's pass blocking is nothing but 1 vs 1 anyways, there are no double team blocks, there are no RB's chipping DE as they go out into the pass pattern. Madden's base offensive plays usually put the TE on the right side of the formation, leaving Williams and Peppers 1 vs 1 with a tackle, which is not ideal, but in the Madden that I've seen that is a favorable match-up for the offense. I don't know about 800K worth of game, but I have a many games on that I have played where people have to manipulate the game to generate pressure, moving DE's to DT, moving their #1 rusher to the offenses right side and what have you. Hell I created two 99 everything DE's in NCAA '13 and the guy rushing from the right side against Umass, had 7 sacks while the guy rushing from the left had 2. Recorded the game, too if anyone doubts me. There is an issue with rushing from the offenses left side vs the right side. Bottom line in Madden/NCAA elite edge rushers are not elite in the game.

All great points Rob but the issue becomes how do we have this discussion without somehow offending EAGCs? I am not suggesting that anyone has intended to state anything offensive but how this stuff seems to go is, an EAGC or dev states something that is either football incorrect or misunderstood, people point that out but it gets misunderstand, then EAGCs/devs and those aforementioned people go back into their respective stomping grounds lambasting how the other doesn't "get it".

That said, I am not equating here because I honestly believe based on the fact that Madden is a NFL simulation video game, anyone starting from any other position other than achieving optimal NFL realism for applicable aspects is WRONG. However, what I am talking about is finding a way to somehow stop repeating this cycle of misunderstandings, labeling and being seemingly to prideful to admit mistakes or just being wrong.

There is no shame in not knowing everything about real football or video game production, so we all need to be willing to accept correction on either, when discussing how to best combine them in Madden.

[ryan36]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Instant? Sheez. Who said anything about "instant" or "massive" pressure? But, yeah, if I have two explosive, dynamic ends, why the heck should they NOT get pressure more times than not? Doesn't mean they'll get SACKS more times than not, but make the QB uncomfortable, or put that "6th man" on protection to chip one DE while the QB has to have eyes for the other and hopefully a good enough T to give him time. 4 vs 6 works because it's flanking. Just like in a war. Flanking gives an advantage, dividing forces and lowering the amount of resistance to your attack and the DL vs OL on pass plays is exactly that, a defensive line siege attack on the QB. So, yeah, if all 4 DL were trying to come inside on 5-6 man protections, yes, that would likely lose a lot - which is why they don't do it. The DEs flank the OL, leaving the resistance to them just the Ts and any help in the backfield. This flanking move also surrounds the QB, cutting off escape paths, ideally. Then if the ends are dynamic, they can work their way into the pocket and harass the QB. This flanking move - the arc - also takes the C/Gs out of response position. Being 4-5 yds deep in the backfield, the DEs can't get stopped by the C/G - who also have deal with the DTs since they have the direct line to the QB. While flanking reduces resistance, it does cost time, time that the QB can use to read the play/pressure, and get the ball out. That's why a DYNAMIC four can beat six. No, we don't want a bunch of average or worse suckers to beat their men constantly (but I do want them to at least make the arc and try to play like DEs are supposed to). But if I build my team to where I have JPP and Jared Allen as ends, you can bet I want to see them win more than they lose, even WITH help since a HB/FB/TE aren't usually the best pass blockers around (which is when one is, it's notable and valuable to teams). This doesn't even get into the 3-4 because there's even more screwed up with that what with the inability to have, say, Ngata and Justin Smith free up my OLBs for rushing the passer by forcing double teams. Plus no ability to confuse the protections with who the 4th rusher is, bringing 4th from various LBs positions and angles does nothing, etc. Not to mention other defensive deceptions like zone blitzing (because of psychic "we know who is supposed to come" nonsense) which in Madden are just putting a fat player in zone coverage without the benefit of the confusion it should cause - with OL AWR and communication (which can be represented by AWR and PRC) determining how well they decipher it. In my franchise, I have two high SPD, high ACC, high BSH, high PMV/FMV DEs. These guys should be exploding up the field, pressuring the tackles with a variety of moves and hand-fighting, punches to disrupt the T's foundation, and playing off leverage. They should be very difficult to block, win these one on ones a lot, and really force the hand of the OL. Instead I get: -The Ts don't even try to block so they are free runners. Wrong -The Ts barely get their hands on them, not even really fighting desperately to keep the QB alive. Wrong -There's no significant arc, they don't get deep as the QB is dropping or attempt to engage at the shortest path to the QB (after the arc, not at the LOS). Wrong -If I use a 3-man front with them (say 3-3-5 Normal), they don't force double teams. My OLBs get picked up by Guards. Wrong -HB/FB can pick my ends up without much problem. No real determination to fight off their attempted engagement. Wrong -The only engagement is when the DE fails and the OT fails to "patty cake" them and then that engagement isn't even fierce. Wrong We do want a realistic game, which means getting this kind of thing RIGHT with the right mentality and focus on both lines.

Post of the thread.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

All great points Rob but the issue becomes how do we have this discussion without somehow offending EAGCs? I am not suggesting that anyone has intended to state anything offensive but how this stuff seems to go is, an EAGC or dev states something that is either football incorrect or misunderstood, people point that out but it gets misunderstand, then EAGCs/devs and those aforementioned people go back into their respective stomping grounds lambasting how the other doesn't "get it". That said, I am not equating here because I honestly believe based on the fact that Madden is a NFL simulation video game, anyone starting from any other position other than achieving optimal NFL realism for applicable aspects is WRONG. However, what I am talking about is finding a way to somehow stop repeating this cycle of misunderstandings, labeling and being seemingly to prideful to admit mistakes or just being wrong. There is no shame in not knowing everything about real football or video game production, so we all need to be willing to accept correction on either, when discussing how to best combine them in Madden.

Maybe what we need to do is go to their website, put it in their suggestion box and vote on it.

The more the votes, the more likely it will be represented.

That's just one idea.

[StrawHat Patriot]

I want to do an outside/counter draw and actually have my tackles block.

[Illustrator76]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Instant? Sheez. Who said anything about "instant" or "massive" pressure? But, yeah, if I have two explosive, dynamic ends, why the heck should they NOT get pressure more times than not? Doesn't mean they'll get SACKS more times than not, but make the QB uncomfortable, or put that "6th man" on protection to chip one DE while the QB has to have eyes for the other and hopefully a good enough T to give him time. 4 vs 6 works because it's flanking. Just like in a war. Flanking gives an advantage, dividing forces and lowering the amount of resistance to your attack and the DL vs OL on pass plays is exactly that, a defensive line siege attack on the QB. So, yeah, if all 4 DL were trying to come inside on 5-6 man protections, yes, that would likely lose a lot - which is why they don't do it. The DEs flank the OL, leaving the resistance to them just the Ts and any help in the backfield. This flanking move also surrounds the QB, cutting off escape paths, ideally. Then if the ends are dynamic, they can work their way into the pocket and harass the QB. This flanking move - the arc - also takes the C/Gs out of response position. Being 4-5 yds deep in the backfield, the DEs can't get stopped by the C/G - who also have deal with the DTs since they have the direct line to the QB. While flanking reduces resistance, it does cost time, time that the QB can use to read the play/pressure, and get the ball out. That's why a DYNAMIC four can beat six. No, we don't want a bunch of average or worse suckers to beat their men constantly (but I do want them to at least make the arc and try to play like DEs are supposed to). But if I build my team to where I have JPP and Jared Allen as ends, you can bet I want to see them win more than they lose, even WITH help since a HB/FB/TE aren't usually the best pass blockers around (which is when one is, it's notable and valuable to teams). This doesn't even get into the 3-4 because there's even more screwed up with that what with the inability to have, say, Ngata and Justin Smith free up my OLBs for rushing the passer by forcing double teams. Plus no ability to confuse the protections with who the 4th rusher is, bringing 4th from various LBs positions and angles does nothing, etc. Not to mention other defensive deceptions like zone blitzing (because of psychic "we know who is supposed to come" nonsense) which in Madden are just putting a fat player in zone coverage without the benefit of the confusion it should cause - with OL AWR and communication (which can be represented by AWR and PRC) determining how well they decipher it. In my franchise, I have two high SPD, high ACC, high BSH, high PMV/FMV DEs. These guys should be exploding up the field, pressuring the tackles with a variety of moves and hand-fighting, punches to disrupt the T's foundation, and playing off leverage. They should be very difficult to block, win these one on ones a lot, and really force the hand of the OL. Instead I get: -The Ts don't even try to block so they are free runners. Wrong -The Ts barely get their hands on them, not even really fighting desperately to keep the QB alive. Wrong -There's no significant arc, they don't get deep as the QB is dropping or attempt to engage at the shortest path to the QB (after the arc, not at the LOS). Wrong -If I use a 3-man front with them (say 3-3-5 Normal), they don't force double teams. My OLBs get picked up by Guards. Wrong -HB/FB can pick my ends up without much problem. No real determination to fight off their attempted engagement. Wrong -The only engagement is when the DE fails and the OT fails to "patty cake" them and then that engagement isn't even fierce. Wrong We do want a realistic game, which means getting this kind of thing RIGHT with the right mentality and focus on both lines.

Great stuff as usual KBLover. Let's not forget PROPER Line Stunts (which Madden does not have). When guys start twisting, slanting and stunting, it is very easy for an Offensive Linemen to get confused on who to block and where, still allowing a good 4-man pass rush to get pressure. Not only that, flat out, sometimes my 4 guys are just better than your 5 or 6. Period. It doesn't always have to be all of this "perceived" "trickery" and smoke-and-mirrors to get pressure that some would have people on this board think. I remember this last preseason (I believe) when the Lions played the Patriots, it was an absolute mauling by our D-Line. We were flat out unstoppable. No matter what "protection" the Patriots called, Tom Brady was getting that stupid hairdo of his knocked the hell out of place early and often. Now maybe the Patriots were still working on some things, but I highly doubt they would leave Tom Brady in at QB while they were "experimenting" with pass protections. Our front-4 was better than their front 5 or 6 that game. End of story. The same thing needs to be reflected realistically in Madden.